862: What Happens to Taxes if Trump or Biden Wins in 2024?

Brian Nichols  0:14  
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Steve Hayes  2:17  
doing great. Thank you.org

Brian Nichols  2:19  
By the way, fairtax.org I'll get it right. Steve, after the fifth time you on the show.

Steve Hayes  2:24  
I promised comment, Brian, it was Grover Cleveland. Grover

Brian Nichols  2:27  
Cleveland. Yeah, I needed that. It's early morning, by the way, folks, when we're reporting here on a Saturday, so I've got some bats in the belfry there, Steve, what would I do without you? Thanks for joining the show. What's new, Steve, how you been? And what's new out there? Tech's dot org?

Steve Hayes  2:41  
Well, we've we're finally, at a point as we've talked before, we're we're getting enough attention. The Democrats, when I testified before Congress, set it up in a scripted manner where they attacked me, but never gave me a chance to respond. And so that's good, because they're starting to get concerned that their house of cards, which they've called the Internal Revenue Code, which they've used as a piggy bank, not just the Democrats, both sides, you know, they talk about how they're going to change the way, let's just say podcasts are taxed. You know, they're gonna make you recognize income, even if you don't have it, because you should have had it mean, that's the kind of logic some of these people have. And your industry sends money to say no, don't do that. So it's like an ATM machine. And frankly, the big guys and gals who have vested interest, put immense amounts of money into the system, the realtors, the various groups, and they really don't want to give that up. And that's not just the Democrats. That's the Republicans as well who may benefit equally from the system in terms of donations. The real problem they're having, though, and they're starting to recognize it is even though they mocked me when I said that we had a study showing it was over a trillion a year, and that their former commissioner had validated that three years ago. They mock me, and I said, Well, your own IRS study shows us over 700 billion. So it's not like, you know, I'm making something up multiple times. But that wasn't they weren't interested in hearing. They were interested only in talking points and how it needs to be more fair. And and to be honest, some of the Republicans did the same thing by talking about how much they supported the Trump tax cuts. So it really wasn't about reform, as much as it was posturing for them. And But overall, we're making progress because we were testifying. And more and more people, Brian are seeing that this is a broken system. It is looking for alternatives. I mean, I saw your interview with Scott Hodge, who I haven't talked to in a long time. But Scott, and I used to debate this, you know, Scott is more of a was he's becoming more of a fan and moving to something similar to the FairTax. But he's more of a fan of working with the present system. I used to tell him, yes, because if we didn't do that, we went to the fair tax, you would not have a job. Because the Tax Foundation he used to get, he was good natured about it. Don't get me wrong. But he you know, here we are, you know, whenever that's not true. But that's the problem with a lot of these groups in DC. When I first started going to DC, right? Before many of your listeners were born in 1990, I met with a bunch of people like Scott, who are still making their living, talking about the president income tax system. If the president income tax system was gone, and we had a national consumption tax, there'd be nothing to talk about. They'd have to find other topics. And they're bright guys, they could easily do that. But I mean, Scott's very bright. And so they could go into more economic areas, but they would be in areas that actually benefited people, as opposed to a tax system that oppresses people.

Brian Nichols  6:39  
Steve, let me let me play devil's advocate on Scott's behalf here, because he's not here to defend himself today. But how much does the role of incrementalism play in terms of the differences between you? And Scott? And here's the context behind that question. Because to you're starting off point, the fair tax, it does make sense, right, it's more of the consumption, consumption tax, it's what you actually are using versus just hey, we're gonna give you a 40% tax rate, because you earn too much last year, versus where Scott, I think, and I maybe try and do my best to present his argument on his behalf while he's not here. But the fact that we have such an archaic backward system that going from point A to point Z, overnight is going to be incredibly difficult. So we need to have incremental approaches from A to B to C, to M to Z, and it's going to take some time. But to get people on board, if we were to do a complete rip and replace. And let's use my sales analogies, right? If I would go to a customer and I say, Hey, we're gonna go ahead and redo your entire technology stack. Tomorrow, they're gonna look at me like, no, because I'd number one need to make sure it's done properly. But number two, we got to just get comfortable with this change. So is there a part of this that factors into the disagreements even though they are on the same side of the conversation? But maybe that's more of the difference there versus anything, you know, of any real substance? But when it comes down to the nitty gritty, if that makes sense? Well,

Steve Hayes  8:05  
I think the key is, obviously, as Scott has discussed in the details, and your point is very, very good. Because what we're doing is taking a paradigm that's been, frankly, in all of our lives, the living people now, since we started and the paradigm has been the income tax system. We've grown accustomed to sit devil we know. What we also know, though, is that in 45, states in the District of Columbia, the fair tax is simply an excise tax, a retail sales tax. Well, that's what's in existence. We've grown up with that, since the early 30s. And so frankly, you're not talking about something people aren't familiar with, you know, Scott's point is that if you go, let's say, December 31, to January 1, you're going to have some real upheaval, because you've got a lot of products that were manufactured, when all of the government costs had to be included the labor cost of Social Security, all of the tax income tax markups that were in the price somewhere between 15 and 25%. And my argument back to them was, look, we've got a provision in the bill, which is a transition provision, which allows any inventory at the crossover point to not have to collect the fair tax because that doesn't have the benefit of having the prices reduced. So there is a way to do the transition. And what Scott's talking about is very clear my argument back, whether it was to Steve Forbes, or are no fiber was on a panel with Scott directly, not just personally but has always been incremental change in DC almost never works. They get to fire on their tails that they need to change. And they say, Okay, we're going to change over 510 years, once that fire goes out, they say, Oh, well, we don't really think it's a good idea to get rid of that next part of the income tax. But we do like the fact that the sales tax raises a lot of money, we're going to bump that rate and keep the sales tax and the income tax. I mean, Ben Cardin, from Maryland, who certainly not a conservative, called me and wanted to meet and he had come up with a proposal, he was going to have a model that on Iris, he was quite frank about it, retail sales tax, up to 100,000 of income, you would pay nothing but to retail sales tax, it had a prebate. And then it was going to have an income tax on income over 100,000. And he had three rates, I forget what they were 1015 and 25, I believe. And then he was going to have a value added tax replacing the corporate tax. And he was going to do this, because he said, Look, if I've done this, don't you think I've handled most of the evasion, or a big chunk of it? Because it typically hint happens under 100,000 of income. You're in that range? I said, Yes, I think you've done it, you've done a big thing on it. And haven't I been better for our trade balance. In other words, the present system punishes our exports and rewards imports. Because when foreign countries ship goods here, they give back their value added tax to the export. They come over here and we don't tax. So therefore you've got a situation where his value added tax and his sales tax went a long way toward helping us manufacturers compete. All those things are true. But he went radio silent after about the third meeting. And I later found out this was in 2015, that he had gone radio silent because he had been talking to Hillary who was the presumptive president. And she was going to make that part of her economic package. And she didn't want anybody else to be involved. So obviously, Trump won. And it wasn't part of the economic package, you know, that he could get through. Now to Trump's defense, a lot of things that he wanted to do, he wasn't able to do because of Mitch McConnell. And the house, they basically just weren't willing to go along with it. And he ended up going, I don't know halfway, but certainly not what he had been talking about doing with the income tax. And the estate tax, he wanted to get rid of it. Instead, they gave him a big allowance, you know, they put in and the withholding tax gave me that standard deduction went way up. You know, and Kevin Brady, when I talked to him about it, he was chairman of the Ways and Means and said save. I'm I'm doing your job, because I'm getting people where they're not reliant on what they think are deductions. Because we just taken away 60 70% of the people who were itemizing and allowed them to take the standard deduction. And Kevin had been a sponsor of the fair tax when he was before he became chairman. And so I think you've got to look at that. And I think to to a point that most people need to consider is that you've got to incredibly big contrast, not only in the way they view government, Biden believes everything starts and stops with a government bureaucrat. You know, his, he has out Obama at about three times in terms of regulatory costs cost in time to handle a company's business. Trump, on the other hand, had reduced the amount of regulatory time and was cutting in fact, if he had been in office in other four years, we were talking about somebody succeeding him, we would probably have seen a huge difference in the regulatory state. I also think we would have seen a huge difference in the Present tax system. We know with Biden, he is going to increase taxes, he's going to raise taxes at the corporate level if assuming he selected and gets a congress to go along with him, because he can hide the taxes on those people. He says he's not taxing because we know what happens, Brian, when they increase taxes at the corporate level or at the business level, businesses are unlike government can't print money, not stay in business by borrowing money very long if they can't pay it back. So they have to either raise prices, reduce their dividends or their own income, or cut employees or not give them wages that are increasing, they don't have any other choice. Those are the three pockets they can get money from. He wants to do that, because he knows and Amazon and these other companies are going to try to pass the cost on to you and I. And then he will stand in Congress. And its next state of the union insight, those dirty corporations are the reasons that your prices are up 10%. When frankly, that 10% was his tax increase. Now Trump, on the other hand, is a business person, he doesn't come from the bureaucrat frame of mind, that everything should be handled by a young person who hasn't had a jobs since they mowed lawns or babysat, other than in government, because they're a lot smarter than we are. And Trump doesn't believe that at all, because he's, he's dealt with these people, all his life trying to get permits trying to get things done. And he believes that what you need to do is unfetter anti people that's regulations. But he also believes that if you're going to tax people you need to tell, and corporate taxes, do not do anything, except help hide the taxes. And that I think is the major difference between Trump and Biden's policy. Biden wants to increase more money to the government because he believes only the government knows what's best for us. Trump looks at it and says the government is the problem. We want to reduce the amount of takes from the American people while still maintaining defense and the infrastructure that we have. So I think there are huge differences between Trump approach to taxes in Obama's approach, or excuse me, Biden's approach to taxes, Obama looks pretty good compared to Biden. But basically, that's the main thing.

Brian Nichols  17:57  
So one of the things, Steve, for this episode, right? We're not gonna say going into the debate. But I think Scott, and you need to have a debate here on the show at some point, or at least a friendly conversation. That would be a lot of fun. Oh, yeah. And Scott, Scott's a great human being, you're a great human being. So I know, it'd be a great conversation. But let's talk about I'm going to give you I don't know if folks notice, I have access to a time machine, Steve. So I'm gonna give you this time machine. And I want you to do us a favor. Fast forward to 2028. And I want you to look at two parallel universes, one in which Donald Trump wins reelection, while the second election, much like Grover Cleveland, thank you for crediting me, or it, let's go to the other universe, Joe Biden, miraculously, at the tender age of 80. God knows what wins reelection, and he's gonna give us another four years. So we have four years of both Trump and Biden to look back on and at least judge what they were able to do and what they might do in the future. And you outlined exactly what happened, the context behind why things happen, but let's maybe paint the picture of what you see in the future. 2028. Looking back to where we are today, what's happened if Trump wins, what's actually happened if Biden wins reelection and help paint that picture for us?

Steve Hayes  19:09  
Well, I think that economically, the country is much less robust under Trump. It's still got a problem, potentially, because Trump has proven not to be this, you know, the debt pay down guy that he claimed he would be. But let's say he gets back on his buried on that and starts doing that. I think we're going to see a reduced amount of borrowing a reduced amount of debt. We're going to see more economic opportunity, I believe we're going to see some major changes which will make our products more competitive with foreign products, which means more jobs here, higher wages, higher productivity, more investment us if Biden wins. I'm concerned Because of his idea, again that only government knows best that you're going to see more and more attempts to take money out of the economy, you're going to see more and more willingness to expand even more rapidly than national debt, because he's going to want to do like the Romans did. Back when they were having problems before they collapse, and that is feed the people, he's going to cancel student loans, he's going to give money to podcasters. He's going to give money to lawyers, he's going to do everything with printed money to help make an appearance see that we're doing okay, but it's going to become an appearance see a balloon that's going to collapse of its own weight. And frankly, I think, a much less free country, because you're going to be ruled more and more by again, some bureaucrat who's never held a job in the private sector, who basically thinks that he's smarter than you are. And he'll tell you what to do. And I think that's the biggest contrast not only economically, but from a civil liberties point of view between where we'll be in 2028, under a Biden, and I don't think it'd be Biden. I think it'd be Harris, because I don't believe he'll make it through the term. And what's even worse? Yes, yes,

Brian Nichols  21:24  
by the way, yes, yes. It was even worse with that cackling VP, we have but continue, sorry.

Steve Hayes  21:30  
No, no. And but with Trump, you also have to look at who he picks as a vice president, because Trump is 78. Yep. And he's a go getter. He still got a lot of energy. He still loves his Big Macs, apparently. And he still, you know, Big Mac, like milkshake and fries. But here's, here's a guy who wears people at 40 years younger than he is. But, you know, it can happen with him, but I believe whoever he picks or vice president will be someone who will continue the mold that he said, and I think you're going to have a much better opportunity for more personal freedom, and more economic freedom, and a more prosperous America. Vivek

Brian Nichols  22:14  
Ramaswamy.

Steve Hayes  22:17  
I don't think so. Oh, I don't think so. I liked the way it comes across. But I think it'll be someone. I mean, the person who I listened to was very impressed with with Doug Bergen from North Dakota,

Brian Nichols  22:31  
I keep hearing Doug Burgum left and right, by the way, I his name isn't popping up. And I also heard he was bringing his wife to certain events, which that usually doesn't happen unless there might be something working behind the scenes. So I

Steve Hayes  22:42  
think it is being brought in and showcased by Trump. In a lot of different he was at the Bronx with Trump at the North Carolina GOP convention, which I attended, because we were very close to having a fair tax bill go in North Carolina, you know, State Fair Tax, and he was there gave a great talk. And he's if you look around, he's becoming more and more present when Trump does these rallies. Yep. So I think they're really vetting him. He did his fellow with a similar background. He started well, not similar. Trump started with a lot, maybe higher, he started with nothing. And built a huge company, very successful company. So I think he's got a lot in common with Trump. I think Trump believes that he would, that he's not a politician, per se. He's a business person who became a politician like Trump.

Brian Nichols  23:42  
And Doug Burgum is how old Steve um, I was actually pulling that up here as you were doing with Steve, I believe. Yes.

Speaker 1  23:48  
60. Here, age 60.

Brian Nichols  23:52  
Come on, Brian. You can use computer 1956. So he Yeah, he's right. Right over the edge. He's getting closer to 70 I guess,

Steve Hayes  24:00  
right. Yeah. Yeah. He's very close. He's actually 68. I thought he was in his mid 60s. Yeah,

Brian Nichols  24:06  
that's credit to him that he's looking at. He's looking at he's looking young.

Steve Hayes  24:09  
Yes, he is. No, and I just really, I was just really impressed. It's the first time I'd ever seen him in person. And I thought he handled himself well. He's not a big imposing guy at all. But he's dynamic. And he tells me he has a good sense of humor, which is very important when you're on the stump like that. And and comes across more natural. I don't think there was a teleprompter. I think he was just up there going. And so I was impressed. So my guess is that if there's unless there's something else that comes up, that burger comes, in my opinion, the front runner, I think Scott, all these other people. There a lot of them maybe Nikki Haley is in the running only because of constituency that she might bring. But I think There's a lot of problems. There's a lot of contrast with xi and Trump, that would be hard for him. Well, I

Brian Nichols  25:06  
think Steen elephant, the room to Nikki Haley would just push away so many of the base in Trump's voter base because she is antithetical to what Trump represents. I mean, she is the embodiment of the establishment that Trump was saying, I'm going to go in and destroy. That's

Steve Hayes  25:23  
well, and even though she's trying to distance herself from that particular thing, I believe that's, you know, that's an ingrained and concrete belief from a lot of people. So, you know, we could all be surprised. It could be someone a lady like Tulsi Gabbard or someone else, but at the same time, I think if Trump had his choice, just because of the way things have been going, it would be that burden. All right,

Brian Nichols  25:51  
Steve. So we're looking at the 2028. And beyond, it's looking like and I think we all are just in by the way, this is the common sense that's needed in our conversation right now, not you and I but just in our political conversations across the board, is, objectively speaking, it looks like we will be much better off if Trump were in fact to win because not only would we have now a vehicle to help get some of these ideas in but the people he surrounds himself with are going to be more likely than not to promote these ideas. I mean, the fact that the vague Ramaswamy is right next to the presidency, or former President talking to Trump on a consistent basis, bringing our ideas to the table, I'm saying our being a small l libertarian ideas. I think that's super important. But then you look other people like a Doug Burgum. You know, you go through the list of folks who surround Trump right now, like a Ben Carson or a Tim Scott, like they're gonna be more on board with bringing this type of solution to the table versus someone like an AOC or a Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer, they're not looking to do things in a different better way, they're looking to do more of the same. And frankly, a lot of the establishment GOP is much in that same spirit. And frankly, that's why we've seen a lot of them like your Adam Kinzinger errs, like your Liz Cheney's jumped ship, and they're not supporting Donald Trump and if anything directly actively supporting his opponent.

Steve Hayes  27:10  
Absolutely. And see the other thing in fairness, so we have to look at it. You and I are basically talking to the choir, right? We both have very similar viewpoints liberty, I was registered libertarian for 30 years in California. So you know, we're looking at things from that prism. But if you look around, there's a lot of people out there who would have nothing wrong with what Biden the picture, I painted for Biden stroke, because they're, they're looking at somebody who's going to ensure that they have childcare, they're looking at somebody who's going to ensure that if they get laid off, they get as much money as if they were working. Those are the kinds of things and other than that point of view. That's why we have a divided country. And that's why our views, if represented by Trump are not 65%. They're 51 to 3%. In the polling, I don't think he's anything in a, you know, swing state over 53. But he's in that range. That's still it's still a victory. I'm not saying it's wrong. But you got to look at though a huge number of our populace don't share our particular views on the role of government. They see government needing

Brian Nichols  28:30  
to be more involved. But Steve, but in this really quick, they still vote though, right? And that is the challenge that we have to grapple with is that if we look at what made Trump appealing and what makes Trump appealing today, there is this populist sentiment. And as much as there's a populist sentiment on this side of the aisle, much to your point, there is a populist sentiment on the other side of the aisle. So what's the best way? And how about this? Well, let this be our final question for today. As we wrap things up, what is the best way for us to approach the reality that our democracy literally is a populace type of governance, just put in, you know, codified into law, so 50 plus 1%, of a group of folks voting, that's the way we're gonna go now granted word democratic republic, I get that, but talking about the fact that we have to grapple with you more or less have two sides that are constantly competing, and they are all motivated on emotion and incentive structures. When we look at what we're bringing to the table, it just is common sense from a solution standpoint, but on the other side of the aisle, as you outlined, right, the incentive structure to make sure I'm getting what I deserve, that is just as fervent and just as powerful of the message to radicalize and activate that populace left so what do we do how do we how do we come to grips with that and how do we make real headway without you know the inevitable pendulum swinging back to the left only I'm afraid it's gonna go past Obama past Biden and honest way straight Get off the stolen like what, what, what's the way we can control that?

Steve Hayes  30:03  
Well as, as John Kennedy said, a rising tide lifts all boats, the reason that Trump is getting more traction with African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, is because he's talking about policies that actually have helped them. In other words, it's not theoretical to them, they saw many of them saw an increase in their ability to compete in their own personal welfare under Trump. And they've not seen it under Biden, they're seeing high inflation, which is eating into that demographic, more than anything else. The inflation has destroyed all of the gains that they made in wages under Trump. And so what you've got now is a situation where the job report comes out, but we've lost 600,000 full time jobs. And we got a lot of part time jobs, which each count is a new job to make up for it, but not for the full time job. And a lot of those people who lost those jobs or in those communities, they are seeing it. And so what I believe has to happen, is this whole thing that Reagan and Carter, did, are you better off today than you were four years ago? If the answer is yes, reelect the president, the answer is no vote for me. And I think that's what the Democrats most fear, is that you get that kind of a common sense choice. I don't care what demographic you're in. You're highly unlikely to answer that question. Yes. Yep. breech.

Brian Nichols  31:42  
And by the way, Steve, just the recurring theme. For today's episode was an expression we were using common sense. And I think, you know, I talked about this a few episodes back, we got to get away from the isms. Right? And I guess, you know, I, I'm still fervently a small l libertarian, I believe in libertarian beliefs. But when you start to go into the ISM, that becomes your identity. Whereas I kind of view myself as a, I don't know, a common sense a traditionalist, I guess, like there needs to be this just kind of this normal approach to governance to society that we can all just look at and be like, Yeah, this is common sense. And I think it's Ben Shapiro has an expression he has been using on his show called Revenge of the normies. And yes, that is exactly what's going to be happening, I feel, because there there is a group of folks. And I fervently believe they are in the large majority of just folks who they go along to get along. They don't want to ruffle any feathers. They don't want to rock the boat, but they have at their core common sense. And when they look at what's happening right now, the way our country has progressed, both economically both socially, culturally, they're not excited. And as a matter of fact, they're getting pretty P owed. So I'm feeling and I'm I'm not sure if I'm on the right path here, Steve. Now, how about this? Well, let this be your final thoughts, and you can go to a call to action, but I'm hoping that they are mobilized. I'm hoping that they activate here in 2024 and beyond and stay awake, right? Don't vote and then just go back to your eternal slumber of not really caring to the world of politics, like you need to get involved, especially if you view yourself as a common sense type of person. Because the moment you take a step back the moment you say, Okay, we we your Thanos when he snapped his fingers, he eliminates half the world does he do, he goes to his farm and he just goes and chills what happens, the Avengers come and take them out and they fix it. Right? But only it's not the Avengers. It's the rabid left, they're going to come back in, they're going to take back over and instead of fixing it, they're going to bring us right back to where we are today. And further. So it is important for you if you are a Normie if you are a common sense of traditionalist or the hell I said, please get involved, get active. But most importantly, stay active. Stay involved, stay up to date, talk to your friends, talk to your family, talk to your co workers, because it's going to mean a lot more coming from you, Mr. Average, John Doe out there working your day job or Jane Doe, living your life talking to the local ladies like I need you. We need you to go out and talk to folks. Because when you're the ones talking, it means more than coming for me. I'm just a guy with a microphone who yells the microphone for a living. You can go out there and actually talk to people face to face. I'm going to help teach you how to do it. But I need you to actually go out and do it. And with that lead with common sense lead with normality. That's my final thought. Steve, what do you have for us on your end?

Steve Hayes  34:33  
I can only say that what you've said sums it up very well. There's not a lot I can add. But I do think that the point that is not emphasized enough is what you pointed out about talk to your friends, because many of your friends that are out there are too busy raising their kids handling other medical issues themselves perhaps doing things in their business to really A enough attention to what's going on. They see the problems, they see it in their business, they see it in their lives, they see it in their friends lives, they see people being laid off having to work two or three jobs to keep up with what they were doing for years before, but they don't really have a lot of free attention units to focus on buying. And I think people who are more informed, you can come out and not with a hammer. But basically, in a pleasant tone, say, look, there are a lot of reasons why you're working three jobs, that some of which might be changed, if we went back to the successful actions of four years ago. And I think you've got to make it but you've also got to not, as you said, lecture those people, but inform them and let them see that maybe there's an alternative and like Trump said to a lot of audiences, what do you got to lose? You're already working three jobs. What do you got to lose?

Brian Nichols  36:06  
Steve Hayes from Americans for fair taxation. That website is fair tax.org not.com Brian, get it right. So you've only been on the show, like five times? I promise, the next time you're on the show, I will lead with fairtax.org. And if I don't you have every right to virtually slap me across the head. No, Steve, this has been a great conversation. I always enjoy having your your, your take on the issue. Specifically, we talk about economics, taxation, and I guess I'm gonna put this right now out there. Scott Hodge, you heard the challenge? Steve doesn't think you got it still. So come on the show prove them wrong? No, we're gonna have a fun, fun conversation between YouTube at some point here in the near future. And I think beyond take away from today's episode, folks is just as Steve said, get involved, get active, and go out and talk to your friends. And by the way, don't lead with an Argument Lead with value lead with the we call it the what's in it for them statement, right. So think about that. What motivates your friends, what motivates your family and with that, meet them where they're at on the issues. They care about Steve Hayes, I appreciate all the time this morning. With that being said, working folks, go ahead, support you beyond going to fairtax.org social medias, all that fun stuff, any any cool things coming down the pike? Well,

Steve Hayes  37:17  
we're gonna have some really interesting times between now and the election, because we've got several states, Georgia, Nebraska, and Alabama that are seriously in North Carolina, looking at implementing a state version of the fair tax. And if they do that, they'll become income tax free, and much more competitive with the states around them. You know, Tennessee is booming. Texas and Florida are two of the biggest economies in the world. And you've got a situation where we're going to see more and more states proving the fact that we need to go to a retail sales tax. And we need to do it as soon as we can.

Brian Nichols  37:59  
Here here, by the way, this is a good idea. Write good ideas, when they are face to face with bad ideas, good ideas, when and the other benefit, as my hat will say good ideas don't require force. With that being said, Steve, we really appreciate you coming on the show. And folks, if you got some value from today's episode, please go ahead. Give it a share when you do taggers truly at BU Nichols liberty, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, wherever it is you consume your social media content, you can find The Brian Nichols Show. Also, as I mentioned, we've had Steve here on the show many times if you want to check out some of those past episodes, head over to the Brian Nichols show.com. That is where we have the archives of all 860 Plus episodes here of the program. And with that, by the way, we have both the podcast and the video versions of the show video YouTube rumble. We are on Facebook, Twitter, the video version is uploaded in its entirety over there, as well as some clips of the show over on YouTube. So go ahead, give us some love. Hit that subscribe button, hit that little notification bell and of course head down below into the comments. I know the Libertarians are to come out and say Don't you know that taxation is theft? Steve? Yes, he was registered libertarian for 30 years. I think he knows that. I think he also understands that that doesn't really work. When we go out and talk to people in real life. They say okay, go go take your boot and put it on your head somewhere. Yes, and that. Otherwise, yes, we need to have open dialogue, open conversations. And yes, we all agree that taxation is theft. But how do we get there one step at a time? How do you eat the elephant one bite at a time which again, that's gonna be a conversation between Steve and Scott here in the future. Now for the podcast version of the show, Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube music, wherever it is you consume your podcast content, hit that subscribe button, hit that download all unplayed episodes because as I mentioned, yes, he has been on the show before lots of past episodes, but that's also the only place beyond Brian Nichols show.com. You can access some of our spicier episodes like when we are talking about the COVID Insanity from 2020 to 2023. And YouTube Yes, inevitably went through and nuke some of our old episodes because we were harmful content, harmful content? Oh, I love it. So if you want to check out some of those awesome episodes back during the heat of the pandemic, head to the show notes, head to pod or your favorite podcast catcher and check them out over there. And one final plug, folks, please support the folks who support us. And that is our amazing sponsors like cardio miracle, our studio sponsor amp, America equals CBD, we have our good friends over at liquid freedom, energy, tea, and more all them, they're going out of their way to support the show. So all I can ask from you is please support them because they are in fact the ones who keep us having the lights on and having great conversations with folks like Steve. So with that being said, Steve, any final words or thoughts here for the eyes as we wrap things up today?

Steve Hayes  40:41  
I very much appreciate what you're doing. We need to keep informing people. And I have total confidence that when they're informed they'll make the right choice here

Brian Nichols  40:49  
here and that's why on The Brian Nichols Show, we aim to do what educate, enlighten and informed with that being said Brian Nichols signing off. You're on The Brian Nichols Show for Steve Hayes from Americans for fair taxation. We'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai