846: Bail Bonds 101 - Unveiling the Myths and Realities of Bail Reform & Bail Bonds

Brian Nichols  0:28  
Can we strike the right balance between public safety and protecting individual liberties when it comes to bail reform? Yeah, let's talk about that. Instead of focusing on winning arguments, we're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and marketing and how we can use them to win in the world of politics, teaching you how to meet people where they're at on the issues they care about. Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show. Hey there, folks, Brian is here on The Brian Nichols Show. And thank you for joining us on of course, our fun filled episode I am as always your humble host. Joining us from our lovely cardio miracle Studios here in eastern Indiana. The Brian Nichols Show is powered by our friends over at America, if you're looking for all the news, you need to know without the corporate media bias or fluff ed to amp america.com. We have articles, news pieces, and opinion pieces and more over there. I think the opinion pieces are pretty darn good if I do say so myself, namely, because I write a few of them. But hey, go ahead, check it out. Let me know what your thoughts are over at amp america.com. Also, The Brian Nichols Show is brought to you by our amazing studio sponsor. And that is yes, the best heart health supplement in the world cardio miracle. Now I've been using cardio miracle for just about a year. And I gotta tell you, folks, the cardio miracle difference 1,000% real. My blood pressure was always high. And I didn't know why I went to the gym, I worked out six days a week I lost 190 pounds. I'm like, I don't know what more I can do here. And then my doctor was like, Oh, you got this wonderful thing called genetics. I was like, Oh, that thing. So thanks mom and dad family history of high blood pressure. And I thought I was Sol until I had John Hewlett here on the show CEO of cardio miracle. And he starts talking about this new, this new tool he's bringing to the tool belt for folks when they're trying to take control of their health, a secret ingredient, nitric oxide, I'm like this cardio miracle thing. Sounds too good to be true. So I gave it a shot. I said, we'll go ahead and test this bad boy out. Two months, it's all it took two months, and my blood pressure went down from 140s to over 90, to about 120 over 80. Consistently, my doctor was floored, I was floored family was floored. So you know, with that being said, I'm sold. I'm on board, I'm on the cardio miracle train. And folks, I'm here not to try and just sell you cardio miracle. I'm here because I see the difference for myself. And I want you to see the difference as well. And by the way, there's hundreds of you out there in The Brian Nichols Show audience who are already on board to thumbs up to you folks. And by the way, there's 1000s of you out there 10s of 1000s Frankly, who are already experiencing the cardio miracle difference for yourself. So if you want to have the lower blood pressure, heck, a better night's sleep better pump at the gym, just an overall better ticker, all you got to do is head down below into the show notes or video description. If you're watching us on YouTube, and just click that link it's going to bring you to cardio miracle.com You're gonna get 15% off your order just by clicking that link or if you use code TBNS at checkout. Now, folks, I hear you, Brian, this sounds like you said too good to be true. I guarantee it's not but don't take my word for it. Don't even take the other folks word for it. Just trust the fact that you don't have anything to lose because there's 100% money back guarantee. So head to the show notes. Click the link, folks. Cardio miracle is the best heart health supplement in the world. Bar none start today, I guarantee your heart. Well, thank you. Alright folks, let's move forward into a conversation that candidly I know a lot of folks just don't get. They understand the idea of bail reform. They understand the idea of bail bonds, but in terms of how it impacts the actual political discourse of the day, there usually is that deer in the headlights look. So I said you know what, let's go ahead and have somebody who maybe knows a thing or two about bails and bail reform and bail bonds. How about the executive director of the American bail coalition joining us here on the show today from the American bail coalition, Jeff Clayton welcome Brian Nichols show how you doing?

Jeff Clayton  4:23  
I'm well, thanks for having me on, Brian.

Brian Nichols  4:25  
Great to have you here. Jeff. Thanks for hopping on the show. And thanks for obviously, helping us learn and understand all things, bail reform, bail bonds, all that and more. But before we go into the deep dive right into the meat and potatoes, let's have some appetizer. Let's do us a favor here, The Brian Nichols Show audience, introduce yourself to the audience and also American bail coalition. What do you guys do and why is it so important in the world of bail reform?

Jeff Clayton  4:49  
Well, I'm Jeff Clayton. I'm the executive director of the American bail Coalition, which is a trade association of insurance companies or underwrite Bail Bonds throughout the country. Why is it important because the fundamental question of when the government can arrest you. And the process of you getting out or not is sort of critical. And the most fundamental question that we ask and the most fundamental thing that the government does, which is take its own citizens into custody. So very important,

Brian Nichols  5:12  
very important indeed. And with that, Jeff, lots of questions. So let's just start out here, almost bailbonds 101, for the audience who and by the way, we have a lot of folks in the audience who they're under the age of 25, I was just going through some demographics and stuff here with my marketing team. And we're sitting down and we're like, what's going on? We're looking at the numbers and 18 to 25. There's been an influx of folks trying to understand what the heck is happening now, Jeff, I might go on my soapbox and say, well, probably because they're not learning too much in those government education centers that we call public schools, or those indoctrination centers we call colleges or universities. But that's a different podcast for a different day. But I'm seeing them right now. They're coming to the audience. And they're wanting to understand what's actually happening, how things work, how things frankly, don't work. And Bail Bonds is definitely an area in the government schooling system we really don't talk about. So before we go into some of the objections I hear from folks or some of the questions I'm sure you get asked, just what is the bail bond process? How does it work? Why is it important and help those Yes, particularly younger folks in our audience, better understand how we got to where we are today, with the bail, bail bond process. First

Jeff Clayton  6:23  
thing for the younger, younger generation, let me cut through the aoli. Here, you might say, don't trust the government, you are trusting the government with this criminal process of taking you into custody and getting it right. And remember, there are a lot of mistakes are made along the way in terms of the decision to bring the prosecution the decision to arrest you in the first place. And it takes a long time in this criminal justice system to get to the answer. And so do not trust the government. That is what bail is all about is your ability to get a waiver from the government pending trial, most of what bail reform is about as either a political discourse that has nothing to do with reality, or the reality, which is we're going to offer you all kinds of alternatives to having to post bail, we'll put you on supervision, we'll put you on an ankle monitor, we'll do all this stuff because you're innocent. Well, that doesn't add up. And that's what all this debate is about. Underneath it all at the policy level is how much are we going to trample your liberty liberties, or avoid the ultimate choice, which is some people should get out for free? And we just have to fess up to and face the fact that people are going to get out for free and post bonds and commit more crimes, and how much are we going to tolerate that society? That's what the debate is really about? And that's kind of an abstract concept to get to bottom line. Don't trust the government get away from the government? Until you get convicted? That's that's the bottom line right there.

Brian Nichols  7:35  
Don't trust the government? I think that's an evergreen statement here on the program. Heck, just in general. But let's take this a little bit further here, Jeff, beyond just not trusting the government, because I think the audience hears that. Right. Especially because we are a more liberty leaning show. But how do we ensure the presumption of innocence right, when we're making sure that folks who are being arrested that we're Yes, addressing public safety concerns, but we're also keeping that presumption of innocence maintained? Is there a yin and a yang here when it comes to bail bonds and bail reform?

Jeff Clayton  8:06  
Well, we are demeaning the institution of money bail to the point where it's resulting in more people getting detained. Bottom line is bail is about securing your ability or your appearance in court. That is the original purpose. we've strayed from that by trying to handicap like the Kentucky Derby, whether you're going to commit a new crime, and assigning higher bales based on that that's the legal and multigenerational legal problem we're trying to solve. But aside, aside from that, that is the original point of bail is that you're supposed to appear. And judges make those decisions on what type of security we think just like if you're loaning a car, you get a Toro vehicle, we're going to take a credit card deposit and all this sort of thing. It's the same kind of concept, but with an added layer, which is that 90% of the time, it's a third party that's making that guarantee. And in our case, you know, you have bail bondsman involved, which also have arrest powers across the United States to return people. When they don't come to court. That's when the Dog the Bounty Hunter type, and all these bail recovery shows come into play.

Brian Nichols  9:04  
Gotcha. Okay, so how this is a question now let's go into some of the objections I get right. So I do research, I do some curation from the audience. And believe it or not, we do have some I would dare say bleeding heart libertarians, folks in the audience who they want the best for folks, and that's very admirable. But I think there's also maybe the want the the best for folks, but also a forgetting that we live in the real world. Make sense? So, I one of the questions I get asked, and I you know, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here and ask you the question, Jeff. So how can we prevent the bail system from disproportionately impacting low income individuals and perpetuating a quote unquote, cycle of poverty and incarceration? That's one of the main objections I hear from that bleeding heart libertarian audience, let's say you

Jeff Clayton  9:51  
Well, the first thing is don't sell solutions that are going to make it worse. And that's what we've seen in the federal system that took you know, one out of four people being detained and now three out of four people being entertain, in the name of poverty using the same arguments we're using in every state capitol today, which is people are poor, and they should get out. Let's focus on that. And let's not sell solutions like, you know, more incarceration, more ankle monitors more paying more diversion more all this other stuff, and we're just lengthening trials. Let's get to the point. And the reality is I think you're right. I think when we do that, and we start examining, who has to post bail, and why we start figuring out that there's certain people that shouldn't, and in Colorado, my home state, we and the ACLU looked at some of the people that were in where we are, okay, that's this is the problem. And we actually pass legislation to say, we're not allowed to bail on these crimes, because there just wasn't enough justification for it. And if it's a contempt of court, where the guy is taking his pants off and running around the court, the court has to do a bail, then that's fine, they can do an under the general power of contempt, not under a misdemeanor sleeping on a park bench charge. So that's what we think stop selling those solutions. Let's focus in on the reality of who's posting bail and not and focus on that, because I think there are solutions to be found, and there are poor people to be protected. And the other big thing is they don't get a hearing in this country, the due process, this crucial decision that I talked about, you know, when I was an attorney, and I started they said, called Joe beanie, the bail bondsman he handles it. And that was the extent of it. And we're talking about the crucial custodial decisions affecting people's lives. And that's just reality. Unfortunately, we need to put more focus on this particular decision.

Brian Nichols  11:18  
So you said earlier, don't trust the government? Yep. On board. But look at the system that we have now. What's the, I guess the appropriate level of government involvement in the bail system? So like, how can we balance this, this very delicate yin and yang of public safety, individual liberty with having the government being this arbiter of, I guess, who is the arbiter of morality but legally speaking, right? They're the ones who are enforcing the codified laws. So while we don't trust the government, I guess what's the role of government in those processes, despite the fact that we don't trust them, when looking at how they're going to deal with this public safety versus individual liberty? Well,

Jeff Clayton  12:03  
it's case by case. So it's, I mean, it's the arguments of the council in the in the case, and it is arbitrary. For that reason, I think, to a certain extent, and people are always going to say it is, you know, you commit this crime, the bail should be this. And that's how it starts in California. And, you know, we go from there, and then maybe that's unfair to the poor. So, you know, I think we have to rely on the on the judges to do that. Unfortunately, that's not really that good of an answer. But I think that's just the way that it is why don't we trust the government? Because it's all the other alternatives? Right? The original purpose of bail is to ensure appearance, it's not to prevent you from committing a future crime. And that I think, I don't know how we get around that. I think that is a fundamental problem that both sides of the aisle are not talking about that should be talking about that we have been talking about, and that we are going to be talking about, which is a repeal of the federal bail reform act of 1984. To put focus on the fact that predicting future dangerousness like a stupid Tom Cruise movie is our law. People believe in that. And that's not what the framers intended. And I think if we did that we would we would protect the presumption of innocence better than the system we have now, because it would be based on where they're going to show up or not. And where they're going to answer to the charges, not where they're gonna commit a future crime that we have an indicted you on yet.

Brian Nichols  13:12  
Somewhere, Tom Cruise's weeping by the way. Now, let's talk about this

Jeff Clayton  13:16  
Top Gun. So you know, okay, let's take the winner,

Brian Nichols  13:19  
we get the win. So let's talk about this, Jeff, because you look at the way that Bail Bonds was originally built to like what it was actually intended to do get people actually go to court versus what you mentioned, like what it's being used today to avoid. Worst case, you know, future crimes and such, but like, how do we get here, right? Like, how did we get to a point where the bond system has been so perverted from the intended role of it to what we see today? And I guess, in that mentality, right, like, how do we rein it back in without having any unintended consequences? Much like the unintended consequences, I'm sure lead you where we are today?

Jeff Clayton  13:57  
Well, I'm writing a law review article about this, since it's very difficult to put the genie back in the bottle. That's the answer. And it really I think the the Crossroads is 1987. And a decision by Chief Justice Rehnquist allowing this detention based on future dangerousness. A probably the best dissent that Justice Thurgood Marshall ever wrote, in my opinion, saying this is not the system we have in America. So to convince people that people shouldn't be sitting in jail based on their future dangerousness is a hard road and a very bipartisan, difficult one to hoe right now. Because people are in the Willie Horton mode right now that hey, we're hard on crime. We're soft on crime. And that's really not what the pretrial system is about. Well, the measure of hard on crime is how quickly do we get these people and convict them? When we arrest them? What is our strike rate? You know, you look at Los Angeles County, for example. They arrest people, they only convict them 70% of the time of the people they arrest. That's pretty bad. You know, it's pretty bad. That should be the measure of the criminal justice system not pretrial. We should need to worry about future crimes because we're too busy convicted of these crimes. Now, which we don't do, look at South Carolina average time to dispo felony case, two years. Bail is kind of important, because we'll see you two years later. But on the other hand, how does that deter somebody who's out? It doesn't it says we worry about that later. We'll worry about that too. You know, seasons of pumpkin pies later, like, this is ridiculous, you know, it doesn't deter. So that's the real answer. It's not bail. It's the other parts. But you know, convincing people that all these parts of the criminal justice system work together. It's hard to do in a political context. And you know, this having been in the political world, it's just it's, it's very difficult in that election cycle, and the amount of time that politicians touch or issue which is very small. So

Brian Nichols  15:40  
you mentioned all the different areas working together. My day job, I'm in the world of technology, and I'm instantly seeing where, where are we missing technology right now in this process? Because, I mean, I'm not trying to like, you know, make the whole professional Bail Bonds sound archaic. I mean, we're going back hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of a process here, where I mean, we go on our computers, and we can be greeted by AI and automation and all this wild and crazy technology, Jeff, so like, in that spirit, like, are we missing out on some of the newer technologies to help address the the reason we have bail bond in the first place? Can we start to maybe change the way we talk about bail bonds by leveraging the technologies that are actually available nowadays, habeas corpus,

Jeff Clayton  16:25  
which means, you know, your right to appeal before the court, but what it really means is in the bail context is quick release this, you cannot bail people out nationally with this right now. And that is the difference, right? Bail is your fundamental constitutional right, and we need it now. You know, we have waiting rights for guns, but you know, the right to bail is not dangerous, right? We need it now. We don't need a background check. For the third parties that are posting bail. We don't need a background check for the bail bondsman. They're already licensed. We don't need an insurer, a license for the insurance companies. They're already licensed the instantaneous nature of bail, and the fact that it relieves you of all other state burdens. pending trial is something that nobody has leveraged. And it is the beauty of bail. The other thing that people haven't leveraged is the fact that bail bondsman take custody of people. If we want to help people and improve people we have already pipeline of people that are there that we could take custody of and make them do something is a whole area that hasn't been explored is how could we divert people, you know, doing this, the fact that we have custody of them is a whole nother area that people on the sort of the left side of this say, well, we hay bale, we hay bale. It's like we'll take custody, your people get away from the government, and let's get them on the right path and get actual real Pretrial Services meaning drug treatment and all this sort of thing that people need employment services, to get them going on the right path, at least the people that we think we can we can help. And I think that's a that's a big population that we're just that we're just ignoring right now. So

Brian Nichols  17:52  
Jeff, you hinted at this, I want to maybe take this a step further. So how much are you seeing our criminal justice system? And our I'm just going to, like, encapsulate public health here, but like mental health, specifically, how much are we seeing those two worlds really starting to enter intercross with each other? Right. And with that, how many of those issues from a mental health standpoint are instead of being addressed through a health perspective being addressed through the the criminal justice system? And I guess, what are the implications there?

Jeff Clayton  18:24  
Well, I hate to sound like Nancy Reagan, but kids should not do drugs, because that is what is going on. And that's okay. But what is also going on is that we don't have a residential custodial place for people to make the transition off drugs. You know, and I had a friend who went through this, and he went to Southern California, and he was there for three months, and he was great. And it costs a fortune. And he's, he's solved. I mean, he went through this major process. But that's not what everybody can do, they still got to work their jobs, they're going to lose their house, they got their wife, they got their kids, they got their child support, they got this and that we just don't have that capacity as a country, every single jail administrator or sheriff in this country will say that the jail is the de facto, you know, detox facility in this country. And I know that some urban centers, you know, if you get a DUI, they put you in, but by and large, if somebody is violent, and they, you know, that's where they're gonna go is jail. And so yes, we need to, we need to solve that. And then the other thing is just treatment, you know, people go, by the time they get to the criminal justice system, it's too late at that point, right. They've already gone across a place that we don't want them to go into this zone where we don't know if we're going to be able to get them back. And that's the unfortunate part. We need to start much sooner with that. But really, it comes down to drugs. That's the number one thing we see wrecking people's lives and I think it really is this fentanyl and they're in you know, not only is it killing 80,000 Americans a year it's doing major damage along the way to people so if you if you want to think about anything in the criminal justice system of why people were in there, that's a biggie and then legend said mental health but that's an obvious one and lack of capacity for that it's been so I mean, people have been talking about since you know, for 40 years since we got rid of sanitariums and stuff. So

Brian Nichols  20:04  
we talked about big picture, bail bond stuff. Now let's go to bail bonds and such in the news. And we're gonna go down to the state of Georgia, where Governor Kemp just went and passed a law or signed a law rather increasing the number of bail, restricted offenses. Now your friends over at the ACLU, Jeff, they're not too happy. They said, this is a cruel, costly and counterproductive measure. Now, I love myself a good alliteration. But something's telling me that maybe they're trying to make people feel a certain way instead of actually addressing what this this bill that Governor Kemp signed into law actually did.

Jeff Clayton  20:40  
And then they said it was gonna ruin the entire future of Georgia or something like that the same paragraph? It's not that big of a bill, folks. Okay. It is an important bill and what the bill restrictive defense thing means is no automatic free bells, no scheduling policy to say this guy gets a free bail. And why don't we do that, because states like Texas and other states say you got to see a judge. First, we're going to relieve the bail burden, particularly in some of these very high level cases. And that's what Georgia did a couple of years ago. And frankly, the ACLU didn't sue at all, at that point, to say these high level crimes, you have to go see a judge first. And guess what, when you see a judge, a judge can do $1 Bill, you know, and they don't. But the point is, it's a way it's an automatic way to keep people from falling through the cracks that are dangerous. And it tells the judges that the legislature thinks these are important, these people should probably have to secure the release, because they're facing a major sentence. They've committed a major crime, and we want to make sure that they show up for it. That's all it does. And so the ACLU can whine and cry all day long. It didn't like other states set mandatory bails, which we've seen in statute 50,000 for some bills, you know, and it still allows an agency test at the end of the day, right? The judge says, Hey, buddy, you got to do some security. Well, that could still be five cents, because he's poor, right? That could still be the amount in the canteen money. You know, the best bail reform case that the ACLU filed all the time was in up in Massachusetts, in Boston, you can see the red face judge saying motion denied. He may say you can't afford to bail, but I checked his canteen account, he has more money in there than the bail was was allowed. So let's not get into that. So you know, there's always a lot going on on bail. So

Brian Nichols  22:15  
Jeff, we've gone through big picture, we've gone through some stuff in the news. And now unfortunately, we're at the point where we gotta start wrapping things up. So with that, I would love it if you could give us your final thoughts for today's episode. Namely, as we're looking at Bail Bonds, bail reform, there's a lot of narratives out there, right? So what would you recommend to folks, both the young members of our audience, the older members of our audience, who are looking at bail reform, looking at bail bonds as a topic in the news? And how can they navigate the fluff the emotional narratives with what actually is happening boots on the ground?

Jeff Clayton  22:49  
Well, stay away from extremists labels on our topic, and cash bail, increase cash bail, this type of stuff, that's not what you want to do. You want to go to a bail coalition.org and dial in on this issue and learn what it really means. Because what it really means is an old system of civil rights that's very difficult to understand, but makes sense when you think about it. And you're gonna see the second thing is you're gonna see a lot of noise in the election on our issue the crime and homelessness in California, but crime in general, it's going to be a top three issue going into this campaign. All

Brian Nichols  23:18  
right, Jeff Clayton, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show talking all things Bail Bonds, bail reform, and folks, if you got some value as much as I did, here, on today's episode, I'm going to ask you to please go ahead and give it a share. When you do please tag yours truly on Facebook x.com, Instagram at B nickels liberty, Jeff, where can folks go ahead support us support American bail coalition, and obviously stay up to date on all what's happening in the world when it comes to bail reform and bail bonds.

Jeff Clayton  23:46  
Yep, check us out on x and bail coalition.org You got me amped up. Thanks for having me on the music. Everything was great. Appreciate it.

Brian Nichols  23:52  
Love it. Amp America's getting people amped up here. I love to hear that. So we'll make sure we let our friends there over IP America. No, no, thank you, Jeff, we really appreciate having you on the show. And folks, with that being said, you know where to go ahead and find the show because you're listening to us somewhere out there. So wherever you caught us today, you can catch us on a different platform. So if you listen to us on the podcast versions of the show, no worries. We have the video versions of the show. So head over to YouTube rumble Twitter, Facebook, wherever it is you consume your video content hit that subscribe button, hit that little notification bell and head down below. In the comments. Let us know your thoughts if you're younger, is this the first time you've actually had a real, like actual understanding of what bail bonds are and how bail reform works? If you're older? Is this the first time you've heard a different approach when it comes to bail bonds or bail reform on either side? We want to hear your thoughts. continue that conversation down below and for the podcast version of the show. Apple podcasts Spotify, YouTube music wherever it is you consume your podcasts, just hit download all unplayed episodes after you subscribe to the program. Reason being we have over 840 episodes notes here of the program, actually, we've had a few conversations in the shows from yesteryear with folks talking about bail bonds. So go back into the archives listen to how the conversation has changed how it's grown. Listen to how my perspectives have changed and grown over the past few years, I guarantee after 2020, you're going to see a little bit of those perspectives change quite a bit. So go ahead, check that out. We want to hear your thoughts as well email me, Brian at Brian Nichols, show.com. And one last plug, folks, please, we love you. And we want you to be able to continue to enjoy amazing content that we produce here with amazing guests like Jeff, so we need your help. And that is by asking you to please support the folks who support us and that is our amazing sponsors. So cardio miracle, we have our new friends over at the Liberty emporium and they're Michael Scott from the office is Michael Scott 2024. He's running for office apparently, it's his 40 day plan 40 Day shirt. Go ahead check that out. Over at our homepage Brian Nichols show.com We have awesome new sponsors like our liberty or not liberty I'm sorry, liquid freedom energy T as well as our friends over at the wellness company use code TBNS at checkout at all of our sponsors for some type of discount applied at your your purchase 15% off here $5 off here, wherever it is, it should hopefully bring a smile to your face. And if you did join us today and you got some value beyond giving it a share. Please give us a five star rating and review. Let us know if you were left today feeling educated, enlightened and informed. That's all we have for you. That being said Brian Nichols signing off. You're on The Brian Nichols Show from the American bail Coalition for Jeff Clayton. We'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai