792: The Prohibitionists are BACK - Rules, Bans, Killjoys, & Dealing with the FUN POLICE

Brian Nichols  
They are the self appointed guardians of morality the naysayers of the nightlife, the avowed adversaries of all things awesome. They murmur disapproval and condemnation for all presumed vices Who are these brooding busy bodies? Yes, they are the Fun Police and in this episode, we're gonna peel back the curtain on these modern day prohibitionists? Yeah. Let's talk about that. Instead of focusing on winning arguments. We're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and marketing and how we can use them to win in the world of politics, teaching you how to meet people where they're at on the issues they care about. Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show.

Hey there, folks, Brian Nichols here on The Brian Nichols Show. Thank you for joining us on of course, on another fun filled episode. I am as always your humble host joining you live from our cardio miracle Studios here in the lovely eastern Indian revolutionize your heart health with cardio miracle. This natural supplement boosts nitric oxide for a healthier and better blood pressure blood plus increased energy better sleep and enhanced blood flow feel the difference today visit cardio miracle.com Or just head below into the video description or the show notes use code TB and S for 15% off your order. And by the way, there's 100% money back guarantees you quite literally have nothing to lose except for that high blood pressure, sleepless nights and elsewise. So with that being said, one more time cardio miracle.com Join the 10s of 1000s of others who are experiencing the heart health journey difference today. Alright folks, let's talk about yes, these moral busybodies, these modern day prohibitionist why are they so focused on addressing the vices that we in society, maybe enjoy to discuss that and more Joining us today is Bill Wirtz from the Consumer Choice Center. Welcome The Brian Nichols Show.

Bill Wirtz  
Thank you so much for having me, Brian, you did a better intro there for the podcast, and I possibly could have done so thank you so much.

Brian Nichols  
Well, I must say it's probably about six years or so of doing this got me up to snuff. But I will say, Bill, thank you for joining the show, really looking forward to digging into things today as we talk about morality, vices, all that fun stuff. But first, do us a favor, introduce yourself as well as the consumer Consumer Choice Center.

Bill Wirtz  
Yeah, so my name is Bill Wirtz. I'm the senior policy analyst at Consumer Choice Center. I do a lot of media work in publishing and newspapers all around the world. And I for a long time, I wanted to do a podcast series. I'm a big fan of the series podcasts, whether it's cereal This American Life, and I wanted to have something that you know addresses the Neo prohibitionists out there and so I got the opportunity to do it. And it's a five part series and we are just one episode away from finalizing it in the season. So yeah, it's been it's been a journey so far to work on this.

Brian Nichols  
And then Beto Beto who is that the Fun Police. Right. That's the new podcast, the Fun Police over on YouTube a part of the Consumer Choice Center offerings there. So we're gonna dig into that. But today, Bill, I want to talk about these vices right, you see, there has been a resurgence, it really has never gone away. But it seems like with the advent of the the social media is that all these different niche cause organizations now they can promote their their message in mass, which might be a good thing in certain areas, but in other areas, maybe not so much. So let's go through some of these these moral busybodies into the point where we do yes, now have the fun police here in 2023 Still rearing their ugly heads trying to stop the rest of us having a good time. Well, how do we get to this point, Bill?

Bill Wirtz  
Well, I mean, so the prohibition is moving into the temperance movement back in the day, the people who argued for prohibition of alcohol in the United States, they, you know, they got funding from big billionaires back in the day who felt they were going to improve society as a result of that. And, and their argument was sort of from a public morality, sort of you were doing something awful, sometimes they would use religious arguments, but ultimately, they were making the case. You are a corrupt human being if you consume alcohol, tobacco, and some cases, even coffee and tea. Masturbation was evil also. And so they were really trying to get the hand of government to ban all of these things, and they were successful with alcohol prohibition. Until while the rest of the world realized that alcohol prohibition does nothing but boosted the illicit market, and created people such as Al Capone, and it was a massive disaster. Now, some other countries also tried similar things. Canada had prohibition for a much shorter time than the United States. And ultimately, the result has always been the same. Prohibition just simply doesn't work. It for instance, you have to know Americans drank 60 to 70% more alcohol during Prohibition than they did before prohibition. So this really, really didn't work should

Brian Nichols  
talk about unintended consequences. You got to love it. Now, Bill is this just vices as it pertains to the more I guess, shall we say illicit substances, right? Alcohol, cannabis, go down the harder drugs, cocaine, heroin, all those other fun things? Is this where the focus is? Or do we start to drift more into other areas of maybe vices like gambling, prostitution, so on and so forth?

Bill Wirtz  
What is super interesting and this whole conversation we have today is, we start to treat the sort of what we consider the harder drugs differently, because we recognize the failure of the war on drugs, but then we move into areas that we always considered softer, and we become stricter on those. So while certain states, and countries believe that, you know, clean needle exchange programs and taking a more lenient approach on hard drugs, is the better way forward, because it considers people who potentially are addicted as people with a with a condition that can be treated rather than as criminals and filling up the prisons with them. So that there is a positive sentiment there. But at the same time, people think, Oh, well, we think that vaping is very awful. So let's just completely ban menthol cigarettes, let's ban those, because that will have no repercussions whatsoever on the on the on the police, on the police involvement in trying to enforce it. And sugary drinks, you know, let's limit the size of sugary drink. Michael Bloomberg started that in New York. So it's a lot of these things, it's a very odd thing that happens at the same time where we look at hard drugs in a more mature way. And then all the things that are sort of the low level vices, quote, unquote, they become like, more harshly treated.

Brian Nichols  
Hmm, interesting. Well, and let's maybe just to help folks better conceptualize what we're articulating here, are there any countries, any states that you can point to, in particular, that would help maybe paint the picture of what a society that you're trying to build would maybe look like?

Bill Wirtz  
Society I would try to build, it sounds very utopian. But ultimately, the goal, the goal, my goal, and the goal of consumer choice center, is essentially to have a system in which adult consumers make choices for themselves. And we say adult consumers, because we do think that there's a, there's a, there's a there's a regulatory moral societal obligation to keep minors away from a lot of the things that we talk about, we don't want children gambling, we don't want children vaping, that makes no sense. They're not at a stage where they get to make informed decisions. And it's also unhealthy for them, however, with adults that have the information about consequences, and, and you know, can can can can make those decisions for themselves, they should be able to do that in in in in a fashion that is that is regulated, because if they don't, then what happens is that they move to the illicit market, we just take the example of, of sports betting, which was, which was illegal in the United States for a very long time. And that became and then became legal not too long ago after a Supreme Court decision. And what you see now is you have economic boost and an increasing amount of states as a result of this. And people not flocking to those very shady websites anymore, but now doing it in a fashion that is regulated, advertised in a certain way as well. And we have a mature, more mature consumer market, more mature companies that engage with it, and that also have sort of social responsibility. Because I think this idea that for instance, gambling, the casino, for instance, benefits from somebody completely bankrupting themselves, is also just just not true. Also, Jack Daniels doesn't want you to drink yourself to death, that is not ultimately actually not a good customer anyway. So So I think we, as we treat those things, as adults, as consumers as adults, we we learn more about how to deal with those extreme cases where people go overboard.

Brian Nichols  
And let's maybe dig into that a little bit more, because I can hear it right because we've talked about this a couple times during the show and more recent months where there is that kind of fine line between acceptance and tolerance, right? So we can accept that people can live their lives as they see fit and maybe that's not going to align with the ways that we would want them to live right so I used to be a heavy drinker and it turned you know, probably about two and a half years ago at this point where I said you know what, no more drinking and I've been sober since and for me like that, that was a great personal choice for me. But maybe that's not the right choice for somebody else. Now I would advocate other people to maybe put down the drinks and experience a sober life because it's very eye opening in terms of how much you were missing when you're completely masked by a substance right but then there goes into the world with the tolerance right? And you go towards other issues how much of that will I tolerate towards other people doing this and then well, are they harming somebody else? No. Okay, well, what happens if they go behind the you know, the wheel of a car right? And now all sudden you stop Want to add in all these potential unintended consequences? Or just nefarious consequences due to their actions? And I guess then it turns into the where is that line? Right? Where is the line of accepting people's? Maybe not great ways of living their life? But then where do we draw the line of tolerance and in saying we will tolerate you up to the point that you're now having a direct harm on not just maybe others but society, by and large. Now,

Bill Wirtz  
if I believe that the new prohibition is made the argument about drunk driving from the perspective of trying to avoid all of those cases only, I would maybe say, okay, but let's have a conversation about how to you know how to look into these specific cases and how to solve them. But that's not the argument that ultimately making I mean, we there's new new temperance groups out there, such as like mo Vendee, which used to be called the international order of good Templars that, you know, lobby in Canada to get alcohol consumption down to practically zero. So these people, they they're ideologues, they don't they use those cases, as, as you know, it's convenient accidents in order to make a case that we should pray, but all of it. And I mean, for cannabis regulation, it was the same thing. If you listened to the way that people argued for the continued prohibition of cannabis, the arguments they were making in the 70s really don't make much sense today anymore. I mean, the idea that people would turn violent and criminals and all of those things, when very often cannabis has the doesn't really, I mean, mix you very much the opposite of violence, as far as I can tell. So I think I think that that that part, I don't really I don't really accept as a counter argument. And then also, would you say about advocating for people to change their lifestyle, I think that is the good approach. I mean, if you if you want to do better, and want to change other people's lives, you can lead by example, just take the example, for instance, of people who don't want to eat meat, either for health reasons, or because they don't think it's ethical. They didn't enforce that by law. But 30 years ago, you were hard pressed to find any vegetarian or even vegan meal in a restaurant, but look at it now. I mean, now there's so many choices, you you'll you'll have a hard time finding a restaurant that doesn't. And that is sort of a market demand that they created by campaigning by going out there but advocating for their beliefs. And I think that is the way to go about it lead by example. But don't use the force of government because a I don't think that's that's a that in a liberal democracy, we shouldn't do it that way. And second of all, it also just doesn't work. I mean, that's the we always need to come back to that just prohibition just doesn't work.

Brian Nichols  
Well, and here, let's keep my my devil's advocate hat on for this, this case, when you're talking about when we make these these markets, open and legal and regulated, you mentioned the one part of you know, then you can actually advertise it right. But then I guess, for the devil's advocate standpoint, well, do you want to advertise these different things, right, and you started to go towards more of, let's say, like, you know, that you look at the trans issue, right. And as it pertains to kids, and you see how there has been this slippery meat slope kind of mentality of back 20 years ago, saying, Oh, well, this is just for equal rights. And the the argument against that was saying, well, you're gonna go out with the kids next, and they're like, Ah, stop it. And now fast forward 20 years, and kids are being forced fed this stuff in government schools, and all the parents who said this 20 years ago now are saying, yes, slippery meat slope. But you look at those kids who now have been, I can't think of a different word to use besides indoctrinated. They've been indoctrinated in a government school, and now they're going after real life. And these ideas don't disappear. So now all of a sudden, the context of what's accepted and tolerated has completely switched in the purview. So I say all that do we risk changing the the kind of accepted playing field of what is considered to be standard morality, right? And again, very loosely defined, but when we do start to see objectively bad things, right, that that are are negatively impacting society? Where's that fine line there?

Bill Wirtz  
So when it comes to advertising, and this is a constant conversation in sort of the prohibitionist movements like this is advertised and people end up doing more of it. I think it was Ludwig von Mises who said that you can't make people buy candles and switch away from electricity to candles, just by advertising an intensity there's only so much you can do when alcohol or nicotine or gambling get introduced to societies. It's it's practically impossible to get rid of them the Soviet Union tried it not to Germany tried to ban the smoke smoking completely in public places. And you know, the the documentaries about World War Two really show you that that didn't really work out at all. So I think there are certain things we can't like we can't just rid ourselves of them by law. What advertising also does and I think this is very because people only look at this as Oh, this is the company trying to, to make money? And of course it is. But what advertising also does for consumers is it informs them about the serious players on the market. A brand new trust is often a brand that advertises in a certain way. And for instance, when when it comes to gambling, when gambling when, when sports betting became legal in the United States, now, a lot of consumers didn't really know. Okay, well, what is the brand now that is regulated and can be trusted? And how do I not fall into the trap of getting scammed or one of those, one of those illicit sites that, you know, I may be able to access because I use a VPN, and so on. And advertising helps in that in establishing a reputation and trust with consumers. Of course, those brands, I mean, what ultimately, I think this is, this is very interesting that we covered in the podcast as well. Those brands are ultimately not really creating new gamblers, these ads don't create new people to gamble, what they do is they compete against other brands in order to get the attention of those who already gamble. I think this is super important. It's the same way that if you're on a bus stop, and you see an ad for alcohol, it doesn't try to incentivize the 16 year old on its on his way to school to start chugging a bottle of whiskey, what it tries to do is say, Oh, if you like whiskey, choose our brand instead of the competitor. And I think there's there's a big misunderstanding what sort of what advertising in a lot of these vices tries to achieve? So let

Brian Nichols  
me then take this one step further, what would you say would be the best way for folks outside of the strong arm of government to help curtail some of the the changing of acceptance and tolerance? Right? So is it is it? Is it okay? Is it is it? Is it a good part of the market for voices to say drinking bad, right and not using government to force down saying no drinking, but rather maybe to counter, not just the whiskey saying this is a better whiskey brand. But somebody saying whiskey is bad? Is that an acceptable? I guess, kind of alternative to this type of solution?

Bill Wirtz  
Well, the interesting thing is that there's a lot of people in public health, that that mean, genuinely good. I mean, they don't come at this from a bad place. And you know, 1020 years ago, essentially what they were doing was saying, Okay, this is the amount of alcohol per week, were you not really running a health risk, and you can still enjoy yourself. And so if you go beyond that, that that's problematic. But this is sort of the the reasonable level, and they've moved away from that. So they shifted the goalposts to essentially reduce that number to the extent that essentially, you gave up drinking completely, and they mix up the science and their ideology in order to match the two and say, Well, no amount of drinking is acceptable or good for your health. And that is just we just know that that's not true. So I think if they wanted to do something productive, is just inform people sort of this is what we think is good. This is this is like what the science tells us in terms of the amount of drinking that will get you in trouble and the amount that won't, you know, just be aware of if you go to a party, drink water in between stay hydrated, these type of things. I think we really what we do by demonizing it completely and saying, okay, all of it is bad for you, is that we end up just not giving guidance whatsoever to people who will be drinking no matter what. And, and we just, we just abandoned this idea. I mean, also, for instance, in tobacco, the amount of people smoking has considerably dropped since the introduction of tobacco harm reduction with E cigarettes and these heat not burned devices. Because essentially, people people through the market got an alternative that is provably 95% less harmful than smoking conventional cigarettes. And this has really helped people to wean off smoking. So the market provides a lot of solutions. And if campaigners want to say, look, we might disagree ideologically on whether you should do those things in the first place. But okay, let's at least find a way in which you do it in a safe a manner in which you know, you don't bother other people. I think that's perfectly acceptable. But I think where it stops for me is when you suggest that we should use the police. And you know, I don't know the DEA and people busting through your window, because they suspect you a dealer, I mean, all the consequences of sort of the war on drugs to replicate that onto other things by banning them. Also, I think that's a terrible way to go about it.

Brian Nichols  
Yeah. And how about this, as we go towards the little segment, we call final thoughts here, I'll kick things off, and I'll turn it over to you for your final thoughts. I am absolutely on board with no government being able to come in and dictate these, you know, these social goods with a caveat, right. As we get more and more down to the local level. I think there's at least more of an argument for some of your local your localities to make decisions that's better for them. And the reason being is that when we take and let's use the United States as the example here you have one country but 50 not just entirely different states as it pertains to their socio economic statuses, but also geographically speaking cultural Speaking. I mean, we have folks in Alaska and then contrast that with folks in Hawaii. It's night and day, right? So to have these one size fits all policies, I think is a very dangerous path to go. But as you start to get more localized, let's say you go to Alaska is we're using this as the example. Maybe there's a state policy, but maybe we make it even more granular. Maybe it's Anchorage, Alaska is making a city policy that would then I think, in that world be more acceptable versus that one size fits all for entire country. Now, with that being said, Is this the effective solution? I don't think so. Because anytime you start to use government to put policies into place that are against the culture, you're gonna get kicked back. And we learned this from Andrew Breitbart, politics is always downstream from culture. So then I go into well, how do we most effectively change the culture and you used not just you know that the smoking example and you brought e cigarettes from a market standpoint, offering alternatives, but hey, I grew up, you grew up, you're a millennial. We grew up during the era of all that the truth.org commercials where it's showing, you know, the differences between a healthy lawn and a smoker's lung. So there was absolutely marketing that was taking place that was trying to change the culture for younger generation as they turn into older, older consumers. And I can't remember the specific study I saw, but there was a decrease in the number of smokers prior to E cigarettes really taking over the market, that seems to have been something pushed by the culture. Now, this is not to say, you know, yes, we have to support organizations like dare who are going out and overtly lying to children. But we can't I think, walk and chew gum at the same time saying smoking is not good for you, like, you can make an argument trying to say like, you know, oh, smoking helps helped me lose weight, smoking helps me calm down. And like all these kind of, you know, anecdotal answers, folks will give why they enjoy smoking. But objectively speaking, just as I who used to weigh a 380 pound life, I know that eating surplus amounts of calories and not working out and and that will lead to a an unhealthy lifestyle where I am morbidly obese and just hating life. That's an objective reality. Same thing is true for people who smoke if you smoke, you will more likely than not have negative health consequences, whether that's lung cancer, pulmonary issues, whatever it may be, those will pop up. And I think we have to kind of acknowledge the kind of black and white Yes, this is good. Yes, this is bad. But also saying is long as you know, that make a decision, because you are a human adult with a functioning brain, go ahead and make that decision for yourself. But when it comes to, you know, trying to change the culture, I think we do have to at least acknowledge when certain policies or certain practices are good, but also are bad and call them for what they are. I guess that's my final thoughts today. Bill, what do you have for us on your end? Yeah, I

Bill Wirtz  
absolutely agree that, you know, smoking is bad for you. I mean, we know that it's absolutely terrible for you, I would just say as an addendum, the decrease in the amount of cigarettes being sold. That is, well, I mean, it has a lot of factors, one of them being the price and cigarettes have become exponentially more expensive. But what we can't track as well is the people that buy it on the illicit market, the sort of the black market cigarettes that is really difficult to chase. And I mean, that was, for instance, the case of, of Eric Garner, who was choked to death by police officers in New York, and he was selling illicit cigarettes. So essentially, what when we have more prohibition with this quasi prohibition through price, we're going to see more of those cases as well. And that's what I really worry about what you said about decentralization I agree with as well I think having local communities decide is better. But then we can spin the argument further and say, well, the ultimate decentralization is towards the individual and individual making choices for themselves. I think that is the that's where we should get and in terms of my final thoughts well I really hope that people enjoy the podcast I hope that people will subscribe and click the notification bell so they don't miss Mr. The next the upcoming episodes help they recommend it to their friends and family. And yeah, I mean, it's we want to continue with this work that might be season two, and we're going to be looking into more organizations such as these so thank you so much for allowing me to plug the podcast Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Nichols  
Bill Yes, the podcast is the fun police from the Consumer Choice Center bill we really appreciate you come on the show this morning. And also folks if you enjoy the show, which I know you did, go ahead and give it a share when you do tag yours truly at be nickels liberty, you can find me on Facebook as well as over on x.com Bill, where can folks go ahead and find you as well as consumer choice center and support your work?

Bill Wirtz  
You can follow me on x at words wi RT Zed bill and consumer choice in the UK consumer choice C and then of course Fun Police on all the major podcast platforms and YouTube. Perfect

Brian Nichols  
Alright folks, well that's what we have for you today. So to wrap things up for The Brian Nichols Show if you are joining us for the first time well thank you for stopping by. And if you are stopping by we'll please make sure you hit that subscribe button before you bounce and you can find this over on via the video versions of the show, as well as the audio versions on video, YouTube rumble, we're also uploading our entire episodes to x.com. And also we upload our episodes to Ben swans sovereign s OVR en great independent media entity over there. And if you are watching us over on sovereign congratulations, you're seeing today's episode before anybody else that's your sovereign exclusive and then if you are listening to us on the podcast version of the show, you can find us on Apple podcasts, YouTube Music Spotify, wherever it is, you get your podcasts much like your YouTubes or video version of the show just hit that subscribe button super important now if you are watching us in the videos hit that like button hit that little notification bell zooms a single time we go live but also head down below in the comments. Let us know your thoughts about today's episode. Do you think that the approach to dealing with vices is actually taking place in a proper way or should we be taking the approach that bill is taking what are your thoughts leave it down below in the comments and then one final thing by the way? Yes we are doing still are don't hurt people don't take people's stuff bumper sticker giveaway, head over to the Brian Nichols show.com Leave us a five star rating and review and when you do take a screenshot email to me Brian at Brian Nichols show.com you will be entered not only to win that awesome gift card or an awesome a bumper sticker but also yes, a $100 gift card over to our friends at proud libertarian where you can buy this awesome snapback for example good ideas don't require force. We have snap backs. We have hoodies, we have backpacks, T shirts, all that and more. So make sure you head over to Brian Nichols show talk.com Leave your review and get entered to win some goodies for the holiday season. That's all I have for you. With that being said Brian Nichols signing off here on The Brian Nichols Show from our cardio miracle Studios. We're Bill Wirtz. We'll see you next time.

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