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June 1, 2022

514: Policing Bodies: Law, Sex Work, and Desire in Johannesburg (w/ India Thusi)

Sex work occupies a legally gray space in Johannesburg, South Africa, and police attitudes toward it are inconsistent and largely unregulated. This results in both room for negotiation that can benefit sex workers and extreme precarity, where the security police provide can be taken away at a moment's notice. 

 

There is growing concern about the appropriate role for police, if any, in society. Many people around the world are examining policing in response to incidents of violence within marginalized communities. In recent decades, police have taken on additional responsibilities as administrators of social welfare and adopters of community policing. 

 

Yet, it remains an open debate whether policing and criminalization bring additional security and human rights protection, especially for historically stigmatized populations. Within this social context, Thusi examines the policing of sex work in Johannesburg, and whether a human rights approach to sex work should ever contribute to more policing, even if the policing is limited to sex workers’ clients. 

 

Challenging discourses about sexuality and gender that inform its regulation, Thusi exposes the limitations of dominant feminist arguments regarding the legal treatment of sex work. This in-depth, historically informed ethnography illustrates the tension between enforcing a country's laws and protecting human rights.

 

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Transcript

Brian Nichols  0:03  
focusing on winning arguments. We're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and marketing and how we can use them to win in the world of politics teaching you how to meet people where they're at on the issues they care about. Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show. Well, happy Thursday, Wednesday, anything. I couldn't make it flying by, but it's also going quite slow. I think it's the Memorial Day weekend thrown me off Brian Nichols here on The Brian Nichols Show. Thank you for joining us on of course, another fun filled episode. Today we're going to be digging into a topic we haven't really discussed here much recently on The Brian Nichols Show. And one we're gonna be talking about sex work, specifically looking and that was taking place in South Africa with our guests today. Before we get there while I go ahead and shout out our awesome sponsor for today's episode The expat money Summit. 2022 you can head over to the Brian Nichols show.com forward slash expat and sign up for this Yes, free virtual summit November 7 through November 11. Five days 30 expert speakers watch for a week, reap the benefits for generations grab your free tickets at Brian Nichols show.com forward slash ex Pat. Alright, so going back to the topic at hand sex work joining us today, Professor India Tusi Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show.

India Thusi  1:24  
Hi, thanks for having me.

Brian Nichols  1:26  
Absolutely. Now, I must say I really gotta give you props, because you're joining us today. Oh boy from Sweden. Now usually you're in Indiana, my state that I hail from but you're overseas today. And you're taking some time to join us a thank you, India for joining us on the program. How are you? And I guess let's do a quick introduction to India Tuesday to The Brian Nichols Show audience.

India Thusi  1:49  
Yes, thanks. Thanks for having me again. It's actually 11pm out here. But I'm still really excited for our conversation and still wanting to go forward with it. I'm India Tusi. As you mentioned, I'm a professor of law at Indiana University Mauer School of Law and Bloomington. I'm also a senior scientist for the Kinsey Institute for sex research.

Brian Nichols  2:15  
And you wrote a recently a new book and that's why we wanted to have you on the show today. And I'm gonna pull it up here for the audience to see is Come on, there we go. Policing a body's law, sex work and desire in jail is your Hans Berg, correct?

India Thusi  2:31  
Yes, that's an Afrikaans pronunciation. Johannesburg? Yes,

Brian Nichols  2:36  
I? How about that? So talk to us. What inspired this book?

India Thusi  2:41  
Yes. So I wrote a book about the policing of sex work in Johannesburg. And I chose this topic because I was really interested in looking at the ways that different forms of contracts are being regulated and to see, you know, what the appropriate approach to sex recommend particular we do. And it was interesting, because they went into the research not necessarily having a particular agenda or thoughts about what decriminalized or criminalized or regulated, but after I saw how it was being policed, and some of the weaknesses, of having criminalization of sex, where I've come out in favor of decriminalization,

Brian Nichols  3:24  
and let's talk about what you experienced in South Africa. Because one of the things I think it's very tough for us here in the United States to get the context of sex work, because it's not as prevalent as we would think, you know, in especially in other societies. So what is the the premise behind sex work? Why do we see it pop up, especially in a lot of I'd say underdeveloped countries, and what is it that we're seeing be the issue with regards to the policing? Because it seems you mentioned this in the book that there has been a little inconsistency in the way that the police have dealt with this issue of sex work.

India Thusi  4:03  
Yes, you know, sex work, you find sex work that may occur in certain contexts in developing countries where people are really trying to make ends meet. You also see sex working United States. What's interesting that I'm a similar both in the United States as well as what I saw South Africa was that initially, sex work wasn't what normalize that, in fact, it was the aspects of it that had a public nature. So for example, loitering, that was regulated in the laws in the United States and in South Africa, and it was only around the early 1900s or so. And going into the mid 1900s, that you see the states and the country of South Africa, deciding to criminalize prostitution. And you know, there have been some issues that come with that because there's all these resources that end up being spent on trying to criminalize a crime that actually results in really few conviction

Brian Nichols  5:04  
and talk to us in terms of what sex work does from a societal moral standpoint, right? Because I think this would be the biggest argument you likely would hear with regards to sex work. From the moral fabric, right, the moral, the moral fabric of the country would be ripped apart if you legalize sex work, and namely, because I think there has been, for a long time in association with sex. And with that, almost the religious aspect of that going into relationships that go into the monogamous relationships we see here in America today that we're familiar with. So could you talk to maybe the difference in the cultural aspects of sex work and others in other cultures?

India Thusi  5:48  
Sure, you know, what's interesting is that the the people that you found really pushing for criminalization of sex work, we're actually feminist, and feminist who were trying to protect the moral fabric of society. And they argued, if you allow for, you know, men in particular, to engage in sex work, or to have these prostitution transactions, we're going to have a really immoral society is going to impact on children's in the impacts of their wives and their marriages. So you find this major push for the criminalization of sex work around the Victorian precariat and the Progressive Era in the United States. Now, the problem is that no country, no society has been able to actually efficiently and sufficiently regulate sex work. So even when you have it criminalized, what you have is a lot of resources being spent on the policing of it, the criminalization of it, but you have people being released, because it's really hard, maybe close to impossible, to actually prove that someone was engaging in prostitution. So it ends up being this really wasteful crime that's being, you know, exhausted, supposedly, to protect our morality as a society. But this is really ineffective.

Brian Nichols  7:03  
There was one thing I think we can all kind of go back to like a really contemporary story, it was in the news for FeliCa millisecond. And just the way that the world is nowadays everything is in the news for a millisecond. But it was the owner of the New England Patriots Robert Kraft, he was I think was back last Super Bowl or two Super Bowls ago is around that time, there was a big case that was going on where he was accused of engaging in sex acts with I think it was Asian massage therapists. And it was a whole big scandal. You know, the NFL was looking into it, I think the FBI may have been looking into it. So your point, you see that there is so much, and I think the only word to use is wasted time, energy, effort, resources in, in really an act has taken place behind closed doors. And I mean, if we're going to get really to like the very, very minut discrepancies between what is considered legal and what's not considered legal, I mean, porn is a legal product, I can call it a product, I guess, um, but you all you do is just add a video camera, right? And then that turns it into something that makes it legal versus not having the video camera, and you can see that there is there is almost like the societal acceptance of sex work. And yet, the laws don't reflect that. So what's what's the disparity? Why is there such a lag between what you see in the, I guess, the culture, right, and then what the law is actually in place?

India Thusi  8:39  
You know, I think this is just an example where the law is behind society, because, as you mentioned, there actually is a greater acceptance of decriminalization of sex work, most Americans support decriminalization, but the laws don't reflect that. And you mentioned the Robert class situation. And then that was really interesting, because at first there were these accusations that he was engaging in sex trafficking, and these were sex trafficking victims. But once there was additional evidence put forth, what we found was just ordinary, alleged prostitution transactions, right. And all these resources that went into this investigation, all these false claims, he ended up having his charges dropped. And you know, there was nothing that really came out of that, you know, and so there's all these resources devoted to this. This accident most people in the United States don't even think should be a crime. Most people, even in the context of South Africa, don't take it should be a crime. But we're expending all these police resources investigations. And, you know, they're we're not even getting convictions out of it. So it's just really a wasteful situation.

Brian Nichols  9:49  
I'm glad you brought it back to South Africa because I wanted to go that route with the second part of the conversation here because you talk about in the book, a story with a young police officer named Zolo, would you be willing to share that story with us?

India Thusi  10:04  
Sure, absolutely. Um, so I did research with a police officers and a police department in Johannesburg, South Africa. And there was this one officer who I met who was, you know, very macho and protective over me as I was speaking to him. And I asked him this question about, you know, whether he thought that, you know, sex work, whether prostitution should be legalized. And his response to me was that it is legalized? Mostly. Right. So that was just a really interesting response, because it showed how, on the one hand, maybe technically, in South Africa, prostitution is criminal. But there is this tolerance of this and just recognition that you're not actually going to be able to get convictions and really successfully eradicate prostitution. So there's this acknowledgment that, yes, it's mostly legalized, although we have to police it, right. And so for me, that just illustrates a situation where we have concepts that is kind of a separate or at least acknowledge that, you know, there's no way to completely eradicate, yet we have all these, this waste that we're devoting toward it. And it's just really problematic.

Brian Nichols  11:17  
So let's, let's go ahead and talk about the impact of the policing on sex workers. Because I think sometimes the stories we don't hear right, we will hear the stories of the NFL owner like Robert Kraft, but you won't hear the story of the sex worker. So let's talk about what that impact has been in let's look at the book, obviously, and what you were experiencing, as you were going through your two years in South Africa, what are some of the stories you heard when you're speaking to sex workers in regards to having to tow this line between a really kind of weird gray area between legality and illegality of prostitution or sex work?

India Thusi  11:59  
It created a lot of vulnerability. They're in a situation where they're constantly negotiating their relationship with police, sometimes it was just at the whim of police whether they'd be able to engage in the work that they were choosing for that evening. And so it created a situation where they were really vulnerable. So there were these moments where the police officers there would target the clients of sex workers, as opposed to sex workers, arrest them, and solicit bribes for them. And when they would do this, it actually resulted in more risky and violent situations for sex workers, because although they were only targeting their clients, so all the sex workers weren't able to properly screen clients, because they're also hiding from the police. At that time, they weren't able to determine whether this was a violent person or to confer with each other, and warn each other about certain clients. So it just resulted in a lot of violence, actually, during that period of time, when I was out on the field. And so, you know, I think by sending, you know, all these all these, you know, again, these resources in like criminalization and policing sex work, you actually are creating more harm for sex workers, and you're not being successful at eradicating sex work. So for me is the policy that simply just doesn't make sense. And, you know, while there are these strong moralistic motivations for why we should, you know, regulate people's private behaviors here, they're just ineffective, right? The policy just doesn't work.

Brian Nichols  13:28  
Yeah, it's always a fine line between getting the policy in place, and then actually getting it to be effective in terms of being sound logical policies, and getting the desired desired outcomes. Now, the audience here on my program, were much more overtly I guess, empathetic to the overtly non government policies, prescriptions, wherever we can try to make things better outside of government, we're going to do our darndest. But then to the point, there are certain things that unfortunately, government has in there, the others who will say, Well, fortunately, and we're gonna talk about that in a second. But there are those where the government has stepped in, and it has made things illegal, right? It may, it has made certain acts, really a crime to just go ahead and take part in, as we talked about earlier, any other time would be a normal, consensual act between two adults. So let's make the middle ground. And I know that sounds like a weird, kind of, you know, half pregnant kind of situation, but to the point of the program, and the way we really approach things here on the show is we try to not win arguments. We've tried to win hearts and minds and we use the methods of sales and marketing that I've taken from the private sector, and we're bringing it to a lot of the issues we see. And right now I see a market of people who we talked about earlier who are kind of already on board with this, they're just not really talking about it and then there are those who are adamantly against it. So let's talk to right now those who are adamantly against it, what would be the stepping stones to get to maybe some middle ground some common ground I'm not sure what that would look like, but what would you see as As an advocate for this space as being maybe a way to start engaging with those individuals who will be putting up the defenses from the onset.

India Thusi  15:09  
Sure, for people who are adamantly against it, I guess I would really focus on providing them the evidence about the violence that occurs when you have criminalization of sex work, right. And you place sex workers in a situation where they're more vulnerable, they're more exposed to, you know, police corruption, there's a lot of evidence of that both in the United States and in South Africa, and they're more susceptible to violence by their clients as well. And it's just not been successful at eradicating sex work, that even when you have criminalization, you continue to have prostitution. And so I think, you know, focusing on policies that are actually effective, would be a better strategy, given this violence that we see occurring. Because often people who are concerned with criminalization or decriminalization, that is of sex work, are concerned that somehow it may lead to sex trafficking or create more violence. And there's a lot of evidence to shows that actually, that's not the case that it would allow such workers to be more empowered, and be able to contribute more to society. And then for people who aren't sure, or who are kind of, you know, in the middle or just not focused on the issue, I think one thing that would motivate a lot of people is just really understanding the amount of money that we spend on policing and criminalization of prostitution. In many police departments, the vise unit is a unit that ends up spending a substantial amount of resources, because of the patrolling because of the arrests that occur. At the same time, there's a low conviction rate, so as it being really wasteful, and those monies can be used elsewhere in the city budget. And I think that's something that, you know, would be really persuasive for a lot of people because I think people who don't focus on this issue might not realize just how wasteful the policing criminalization of prostitution actually is.

Brian Nichols  17:11  
So where do you see this conversation heading in the future? Right. And I asked that because right now we have if we're looking in the United States, for for our world, right, you look at we have a Democrat president, you have a Democratic controlled Congress, likely 2022, you're going to see that switch in the Congress to the Republican Party. 2024. If Biden's approval ratings continue the way they are likely that turns right as well. So that would be if you were to go more into the conservative progressive conversation, a much more conservative leaning governing body. So is it looking good for sex workers here in America going forward? Or will the culture continue forward? Government be damned?

India Thusi  17:59  
Yeah, you know, it's hard to say there seems to be some movement and advocacy occurring, I would say, a couple of years ago, where there's some momentum around decriminalization of sex work, I think we might see some stuff in certain localities. I think, you know, in New York City, for example, there was a lot of support at a certain point toward for decriminalization. So what we might see is certain cities where people get organized and focused on this issue, that there may be some movement around decriminalization in terms of you know, what's happening in society as a culture, I think there's just going to be continued progress. The real question is whether what society feels a society's views about these issues and matches what government does. And you know, what we're seeing increasingly is this gap between what the laws are saying and what what the people want? And no, just real question about how do we address that and make it so you know, our government is operating in a way that's more democratic and really reflecting the our values and beliefs? Yeah, well,

Brian Nichols  19:03  
I think you started to mention the possible solution there federalism, it was inherently built into the Constitution. I think it was brilliant in its application, because it does give us the opportunity to correct the wrongs where the federal government maybe overstepped or is not taking action, or dare we say they're overstepping their bounds in many cases as well. So that might be the option to take moving forward. So yes, localities, cities looking at you and with that, if you're in local governance, please take take action if this is something that your your community is talking about, and you want to go ahead and lead the charge. Well, I'm sure we could go ahead and point up point you folks towards Yes, in fact, India to see she can go ahead and make sure she educates you on terms of what she's experienced with her book and we talked about it here. And I'm gonna add here the stream for folks can see on the YouTube policing bodies of law, sex work, and desire in Johanna Seberg. Now for folks who are interested in yet and going ahead in purchasing this, this copy of this book policing bodies, we're gonna go ahead and do that.

India Thusi  20:05  
Sure, you can purchase a copy of the book policing bodies at your preferred bookseller. So it's available at all major booksellers. And you can also purchase it directly from the publisher, as Stanford University Press on their website is available for purchase. They're

Brian Nichols  20:22  
perfect. So what we'll do, folks is we'll make sure we include all those links here in the show notes. For you, Youtube watcher, all you have to do is well number one, of course, make sure you've subscribed to the program. But number two, we'll include that here in the description. And for you audio listener, just click The Brian Nichols Show artwork will bring it to the Brian Nichols show.com. Or you can find today's episode, all the links. And also we'll go ahead and give you the entire transcription of today's episode. India final thoughts for the audience? Please go ahead and share that with folks from very, very late night Sweden.

India Thusi  20:54  
Yes, well, thanks again for having me on the show. I hope everyone gets no more information about, you know, policing of sex work and criminalization from the book and from this conversation. And I think, you know, it's just an example of ways that government isn't working the way that it should be working. But there's potential for us to, you know, be be what we want to be and actually live our lives free from intrusion in this area, which is our bedrooms.

Brian Nichols  21:23  
Well, I think the audience here at The Brian Nichols Show, they hear that and they say, Yeah, that sounds about right. So folks, if you want to go ahead and learn more, oh, please go ahead. Yes, back to the show notes and check out your copy of policing bodies today. But with that being said, it's Brian Nichols signing off. You're on The Brian Nichols Show for India doozy. We'll see you tomorrow for listening to The Brian Nichols Show. Find more episodes at Brian Nichols show.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

India Thusi Profile Photo

India Thusi

Professor of Law, Senior Scientist, Kinsey Institute

Professor Thusi is a Professor of Law at the Indiana University Maurer School of Law with a joint appointment at the Kinsey Institute. Her research examines racial and sexual hierarchies as they relate to policing, race, and gender. Her articles and essays have been published or are forthcoming in the Harvard Law Review, NYU Law Review, Northwestern Law Review (twice), Georgetown Law Journal, Cornell Law Review Online, amongst others.

Thusi’s research is inextricably connected to her previous legal experience at organizations like the American Civil Liberties Union, Human Rights Watch, the Center for Constitutional Rights, and—most recently—The Opportunity Agenda, a social justice communication lab that collaborates to effect lasting policy and culture change. She served as a federal law clerk to two social justice giants: the Honorable Robert L. Carter, who sat on the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York and was the lead counsel for the NAACP in Brown v. Board of Education; and the Honorable Damon J. Keith, who sits on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit and is lauded for his prominent civil rights jurisprudence. She also clerked for Justice van der Westhuizen at the Constitutional Court of South Africa, the country’s highest court.

Among other acknowledgements throughout her career, Thusi was selected as a Fulbright U.S. Global Scholar for 2020-2023. Her paper “Reality Porn” was selected for the 2020 Stanford/Harvard/Yale Junior Faculty Forum, and she was recognized as a Top 40 Rising Young Lawyer by the American Bar As… Read More

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I've known Remso for about a number of years and have been thoroughly impressed with his ability to connect with others and create meaningful relationships with them. This quality is what drove him to start Club Memos—a group dedicated to …

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March 25, 2022

469: Why This Chinese Immigrant Fears the United States is on a Path …

“I fear the country I love is becoming like the country I left.”

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May 3, 2021

240: The Unified Theory of Scare Stories -with Dr. Patrick Moore

What are the two emotions that drive buyers into action? Love and...? Fear. Knowing that, how is fear being using to sell us on massive government policies with price tags ranging from the billions and even trillions of dollars. Dr. …

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March 29, 2022

471: You Can Do It! Spread Positivity... Recklessly! (feat. Brian Nic…

How can changing your outlook help your mental health AND your career prospects!?

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April 4, 2022

473: Mastering the Upsell (with Victor Antonio)

The fastest way to revenue growth is not finding new business - it's upselling to your existing customer base!

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June 11, 2021

262: Imagine A World Without Veteran Suicide -with Wyly Gray from Vet…

How can a plant known as the "vine of the dead" help heal instead of simply treating symptoms in the living?

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April 15, 2022

482: Why Do the Elites HATE Elon Musk So Much!? (with Hannah Cox & Br…

On today's episode of The Brian Nichols Show, I'm joined by Hannah Cox and Brad Polumbo to discuss Elon Musk potentially buying Twitter, and why the elites have been reacting like it's "the end of the world". "I just I …

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April 27, 2022

490: Building a Story Brand and Using the Right Strategies (with Morg…

On today's episode of The Brian Nichols Show, I'm joined by Morgan Bonwell (Founder, Right Strategies) to discuss the importance of building a storybrand to help candidates and campaigns effectively meet their constituents wh...

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July 28, 2021

289: The Future of Nuclear Energy -with Mark Schneider

How is nuclear energy a solution to climate change, energy independence, and planetary prosperity?

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May 2, 2022

493: Can't Sell, Won't Sell - Advertising, Politics, & Culture Wars (…

Why adland has stopped selling and started saving the world.

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May 5, 2022

496: Tolerance vs. Acceptance & Setting Narratives vs. Responding to …

Tolerance isn't blind acceptance. Nor is it tacit acceptance.

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May 6, 2022

497: Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom! (with Dr. Patri…

Returning to The Brian Nichols Show today is Dr. Patrick Moore (Author, "Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom") to discuss how most of the scare stories in the media today are based on things that are invisible, li...

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May 9, 2022

498: How to Talk About Roe v. Wade /Abortion without Tempers Flaring …

The conversation towards abortion/Roe v. Wade has always been a heated discussion... but does it have to be that way?

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May 11, 2022

500: 5 of My Favorite Episodes From Over the Past 500 Shows (feat. Br…

After 4 and 1/2 years, we've hit an incredible milestone at The Brian Nichols Show. Not only have we hit the top 1.5% of podcasts globally , but we have just reached our 500th episode! Today, I'm sharing 5 of …

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May 17, 2022

504: How Has Inflation Impacted Small Business? (with David Belman)

Inflation has been felt at the grocery store, at the gas pump, at the car dealership, traveling.... okay, pretty much everywhere. And yes, that means that the home building industry has been hit just as hard. How hard has it …

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Aug. 18, 2021

300: The Undefeated Marketing System -with Phillip Stutts

How to grow your business and build your audience using the secret formula that elects presidents.

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Oct. 29, 2021

365: How Do You Ask Great Questions?! -with Tim Wackel

Asking great questions. It is both a science AND an art.

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Nov. 8, 2021

375: Being Courageous in the Name of Freedom & Truth (Feat. Dr. Adria…

"The word freedom is very important, because it's not discussed freely and openly and courageously in academia."

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June 7, 2022

518: How Is this Old-School Retro Gamer Enhancing the Sales Experienc…

When people are best friends with other people, they usually stay at a company.

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July 17, 2023

748: Grassroots Efforts & Local Elections - Establishing Trust with V…

Discover Joshua Toms' journey from socialist to a Libertarian City Council candidate, as he shares insights on wealth disparity, social issues, and the impact of local politics in Lebanon, Ohio,

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July 15, 2023

747: Decoding the Path to Victory - 2024 Election Insights for Trump,…

@rkmcshane discuss the path to victory for top GOP & DNC candidates, shedding light on campaign strategies, key issues, and the challenges faced in the ever-evolving political landscape.

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Sept. 29, 2021

335: You're Selling Change! -with Victor Antonio

Stop overthinking the sales process... remember that you're selling change!

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April 10, 2023

711: Do You Know What's REALLY in Your Cannabis Products? 🌿

CEO Brian Fitzpatrick of @GetInQredible discusses how his company is using blockchain and third-party verification to ensure safe, quality CBD products in the cannabis industry.

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Feb. 9, 2023

678: How to Build Trust (Works EVERY SINGLE Time)

Discover the key to success in leadership with trust expert Darryl Stickel on the importance of trust in organizations and society

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Jan. 30, 2023

670: The COVID Conspiracy - UNMASKED

@NickHudsonCT unmasks the TRUTH behind the COVID-19 pandemic and its political connections in this episode of The Brian Nichols Show

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Dec. 3, 2021

396: Cutting Through the Clutter -with Art Sobczak

"The only way to cut through the clutter is to have a message that is going to resonate with the prospect and what's going on in their world, right at that very moment."

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Nov. 2, 2022

616: GOP vs. LP? - Are We Winning Hearts & Minds, Winning Elections, …

Are we winning hearts and minds, winning elections, or both? On today's episode, I'm joined by Kenny Cody and Jeremy Todd to talk about Blake Masters recently receiving the endorsement of Libertarian US Senate candidate, Marc Victor, and the implications …

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Oct. 21, 2022

611: Fighting for What Matters - Kyle Sefcik, Unaffiliated Write-In f…

On today's episode, I'm joined once again by Kyle Sefcik, Unaffiliated Write-In for Governor of Maryland!

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Sept. 23, 2022

591: To Sell Freedom, Listen More

On today's episode, we're going back to January 2021, when I joined Matt Kibbe on his program, Kibbe on Liberty.

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Jan. 1, 2022

423: 2021's TOP 3 STORIES OF THE YEAR (Crossover episode with Eric Br…

Eric Brakey and Brian Nichols break down the top stories of 2021!

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Dec. 27, 2021

419: Let's Talk Omicron -with Dr. Eric Larson

Mass hysteria and weaponized hypochondria have no place in healthcare.

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Sept. 12, 2022

582: Call Scripting 101 - Proven Call Scripting Tips to Help you DOMI…

Today, I'll also be sharing some of my own personal call scripts that have worked for me and will give you some tips on how to create a great script that will help you in your day-to-day sales activities.

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Sept. 6, 2022

578: The Danger of "DO SOMETHING!" Politics

Do you ever feel like your government is making decisions without really knowing what it's doing? On today's episode, Rodgir and I discuss the danger of "do something" politics and how this type of thinking can lead to bad policy …

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July 18, 2022

547: HERO 22-Year-Old Ends Mass-Shooting - How a Good Guy with a Gun …

When a madman with a rifle started shooting at an Indiana mall this past weekend, a good guy with a gun stopped him—and saved countless lives.

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Feb. 21, 2022

446: Sell Different! (with Lee Salz)

How can selling different help you win more business?

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Nov. 26, 2021

391: The #1 Thing Holding You Back From Closing More Business (feat. …

Brian Nichols: "Why why is it so hard to close business? Because we make it harder than it actually has to be." Check out today's special solo episode where we dig into how to adapt with the changes, plus helping …

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Aug. 24, 2022

569: Never Fly Solo & The 7 Wingman Principles

On today's episode, I'm joined by Lt. Col Waldo Waldman to talk about leading with courage, building trusting partnerships, and reaching new heights in business.

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July 21, 2023

749: Rethinking the College Experience - Student Loan Forgiveness & t…

@JP_Kirby explores the alarming decline of confidence in American higher education, discussing the impact of student loan forgiveness, indoctrination on campuses, and the importance of empowering students to reclaim their freedoms and make informed choices for a brighter future.

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July 28, 2023

751: Bitcoin - The Future of Money in a Digital World!?

@adamobrien_ joins to discuss the world of Bitcoin, exploring its potential future in the cryptocurrency industry, the importance of autonomous banking, and the risks and rewards of decentralized finance.

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Aug. 8, 2023

756: Winning Hearts & Votes - The Power of Persuasion in Political Ca…

@libertywoody unveils innovative tactics for flipping political landscapes, leveraging sales and marketing approaches to connect with voters, and dismantling traditional strongholds.

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Aug. 16, 2023

759: Cold Calling Mastery with The SDR Whisperer - Prospecting SECRET…

Former pastor turned sales pro Jacob Tacher reveals the transferrable skills of questioning, listening, storytelling, and relationship-building he honed in ministry to become an expert in the art of cold calling and sales prospecting.

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Sept. 3, 2023

764: The Political Marketing Playbook - The Ultimate Guide to Politic…

Robert Lee discusses why candidates need to connect with people's issues and provide valuable solutions without anger, discussing the secrets behind successful political marketing campaigns and the importance of connecting with voters on a personal level.

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Sept. 8, 2023

766: Your Potential UNLOCKED - The NFL Exec's Secrets to Playing Offe…

Former NFL executive @PaulEpsteinLA reveals his strategies for playing offense in business and life, overcoming adversity, making fast confident decisions, and building unshakeable confidence by consistently acting on your values.

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Sept. 28, 2023

772: The Creativity CRISIS - Chad Stewart on Igniting Creativity & Pr…

Chad Stewart discusses how schools are killing creativity in kids and solutions like homeschooling to nurture imagination and empower the next generation.

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Oct. 13, 2023

776: Alone No More - How the WhiteFlag App is Rewriting the Rules on …

@RealSpikeCohen and @whiteflagapp founder @Jonny_McCoy have a raw, inspiring discussion about embracing peer support and human connection to transform mental health and save lives.

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Dec. 2, 2023

788: Common Ground for Uncommon Times - How to Break Bread Without Br…

Brian Nichols & @Jtodd601 expose the conversational pitfalls sabotaging holiday political talks and detail tactics to foster genuine dialogue on charged issues.

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Dec. 22, 2023

794: Selling Below the Surface - Navigating Hidden Buying Motivators …

Host Brian Nichols and guest Karl Becker discuss transforming sales through embracing the powerful human truths and motivations lying below the surface that typical tactics never uncover.

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Dec. 28, 2023

796: Is Our Food System Failing Us?

After overcoming her own health crisis, Sonia Gomez is on a mission to transform our broken food system by empowering families to take control of their health and build self-reliance through homesteading.

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Feb. 7, 2024

808: Bill Maher EXPOSED as FAKE "Libertarian"

Biden's reckless spending fuels historic inflation that crushes families, while Bill Maher's fake libertarian virtue signaling is exposed by Patrick Bet-David's principled consistency.

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Feb. 12, 2024

810: Charged $23K Tax to Build on My Own Land?!

A retiree fights an extortionate $23,000 California home-building fee all the way to the Supreme Court to defend property rights and rein in a dystopian system allowing unchecked legislative power grabs that drive up housing prices.

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Feb. 15, 2024

811: The Kitchen Table Strategy - Changing Minds Where It Matters Most

Amid despairing predictions, Brian makes an impassioned case that ordinary citizens reclaiming active empowerment through local community renewal centered on timeless truths, not partisan politics, can rescue the fraying American fabric.

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March 9, 2024

819: Laughter vs. Lunacy - Redefining Extremism in the Age of Woke Cu…

In this groundbreaking episode, recorded during Amp America's first-ever Twitter/X Spaces, Brian Nichols and "The eXtremist Files" producer Matt Edwards explore the power of satire in challenging extreme political narratives, revealing how humor can be a potent tool for exposing …

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March 14, 2024

822: The School Choice REVOLUTION - Parental Power in a New Era of Ed…

@mattfrendewey shares how the closure of a failed micro school in West Virginia demonstrates the true power and importance of school choice in holding educators accountable and empowering parents to make the best decisions for their children's education.

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March 21, 2024

824: Rewrite Your Sales Story - Remove Resistance, Embrace Success, &…

Embrace your authentic leadership voice, harness the power of storytelling, and rewrite your sales mindset to scale your business while staying true to your values, as shared by Justin Janowski, founder of Faith 2 Influence, in this insightful conversation with …

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March 28, 2024

827: The TSA of the Internet - Why Online ID Requirements WON'T WORK

@CarlSzabo explores the unintended consequences of government overreach in the digital realm, emphasizing the importance of parental responsibility and targeted solutions in protecting children online while preserving privacy and free speech rights for all Americans.

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April 5, 2024

831: Why Culture Trumps Politics - How is Laughter is Sparking a Libe…

@mkibbe explores how the liberty movement can harness the power of culture, comedy, and storytelling to create a compelling vision for a freer future, celebrating recent victories and supporting the unsung heroes who are fighting for freedom on the front …

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April 12, 2024

834: AI Apocalypse? - Navigating the End of Work as We Know It

AI expert @JoeGulesserian returns to explore the potential consequences of AI on democracy, employment, and society, warning of a dystopian future marked by mass unemployment, corporate-government collusion, and the erosion of individual freedom, while offering strategies for adapting and resisting …

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April 22, 2024

838: The Ozempic Era - Treating Symptoms vs. Addressing the Root Cause

Michael Pickens returns to share his insights on reprogramming your subconscious mind for success by setting clear goals, breaking them down into actionable steps, and using powerful tools like affirmations and visual reminders to stay focused and motivated on your …

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April 26, 2024

840: "Be Curious, Not Judgmental!" - Ted Lasso & Mastering the Art of…

Rewire your brain for sales success by mastering the internal art of influence, living your values, and embracing curiosity to uncover your prospects' true needs and have your best year ever.

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May 3, 2024

843: The Dropout Millionaire - How Can Mentors Help You Uncover Billi…

Self-made multimillionaire @Thedropoutmm shares his inspiring journey and the invaluable lessons he learned while building a business empire without a college degree or startup capital, emphasizing the crucial role of perseverance, mentorship, and coachability in achieving entrepreneurial success against all …

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May 8, 2024

845: Ideology vs. Identity - Separating Beliefs from the Self

In this thought-provoking episode, Brian Nichols and host Randy Wilinski explore the art of engaging in productive, nuanced conversations amidst a polarized political landscape, emphasizing the importance of curiosity, good-faith discussions, and focusing on root causes to foster personal growth …

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May 17, 2024

849: Debunking the Myths About Homeschooling

@Homeschool_LLC shares how homeschooling empowers parents to provide a personalized, efficient, and creativity-fostering education that prepares children for an ever-changing future while strengthening family bonds.

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May 29, 2024

854: Why is the New Zealand Government Destroying Beehives?

Beekeeper Steven Brown reveals the shocking extent of government overreach in New Zealand, detailing how authorities destroyed $2 million worth of his beekeeping equipment and products, and then billed him for the destruction, highlighting the dire consequences of unchecked bureaucratic …

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June 7, 2024

858: The BIGGEST Mistake Libertarians Make in Politics

Brian Nichols explains why libertarians need to shift their focus from preaching to the choir to effectively selling their ideas to a broader audience by understanding and addressing the kitchen table issues that matter most to voters, rather than getting …

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June 10, 2024

859: Debunking MYTHS About School Choice and Funding

Halli Faulkner from @yes_everykid_f explores the transformative potential of school choice, discussing how empowering parents and breaking down traditional barriers to educational options can revolutionize the future of education in America.

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June 12, 2024

860: Why Your Paycheck is SMALLER Than it Should Be - The Tax Secret …

Tax expert @scottahodge reveals the shocking ways taxes secretly control our lives, driving up costs and stifling economic growth, and offers a compelling vision for a simpler, fairer tax system that could unleash prosperity and freedom for all.

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June 17, 2024

862: What Happens to Taxes if Trump or Biden Wins in 2024?

Steve Hayes explores the stark contrasts between Trump and Biden's tax plans, painting a vivid picture of America's economic future and the potential for a fairer, simpler tax system under the FairTax plan.

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June 24, 2024

865: How Progressive Policies Hurt the Poor

@BenjaminAyanian explains how progressive economic policies often harm society's most vulnerable by misdiagnosing problems and creating detrimental unintended consequences.

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June 26, 2024

866: Why Are Public Schools Getting More Money But Worse Results?

Explore why increased education funding isn't improving student outcomes, challenging listeners to reconsider how we structure and fund our schools to truly benefit teachers and students. Copy Retr

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June 28, 2024

867: Biden's Debate DISASTER | Will Bad Debate Cost Democrats the Ele…

The recent Trump-Biden debate exposed Biden's apparent cognitive decline and reinvigorated Trump's campaign, potentially reshaping the entire 2024 election landscape and throwing the Democratic Party into chaos.

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July 3, 2024

869: Border Crisis Explained | What Libertarians Get Wrong

Libertarians must confront the real-world complexities of the border crisis, abandoning mockery for empathy and offering practical solutions that balance principles with reality, or risk irrelevance in crucial policy debates.

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July 9, 2024

871: The Brain Science Behind Great Storytelling EXPLAINED

Expert storyteller Andrea Sampson reveals how to use emotional language, sensory details, and a five-step framework to craft compelling narratives that make complex ideas stick, build trust, and inspire positive change in business, media, and everyday life.

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July 12, 2024

873: Why Do People Trust Experts Without Thinking?

Brian explores the unsettling shift he's observed in many of his friends who have gone from questioning authority to blindly following government mandates and expert narratives, urging listeners to maintain critical thinking and value individual liberty in an increasingly compliant …

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July 26, 2024

879: How Politics is Changing for Young People | Week in Review

Millennials are reshaping American politics as they face unique economic challenges and demand fresh voices in leadership, while also grappling with unexpected issues like drug-affected marine life, highlighting the urgent need for younger generations to get involved and make their …

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Aug. 12, 2024

886: Is Your Money Safe? | 3 Money Moves to Make Before the Economy C…

Financial expert Joe Lombardi warns of economic disaster under a potential Harris presidency and reveals unconventional strategies to protect your wealth, regardless of who wins the 2025 election.

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Aug. 14, 2024

887: What Makes Things Cost What They Do? | EXPLAINED

Using a banana farmer's dilemma as a relatable example, this episode unravels the complex interplay of supply, demand, and pricing in a free market economy, revealing how these forces shape every business decision and consumer purchase in our daily lives.

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Aug. 20, 2024

889: Brain Glue | How to Make Ideas STICK

Glue your ideas to their brains: the sticky science of unforgettable communication.

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Sept. 2, 2024

895: Why Africa Needs Fossil Fuels to Fight Poverty | Climate Activis…

A Kenyan farmer challenges Western climate policies, arguing that fossil fuels are essential for Africa's development and poverty reduction, not a threat to be eliminated.

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Sept. 7, 2024

897: Why Pennsylvania Decides the 2024 Election | Week in Review

@BNicholsLiberty and @HeyRemso challenge conventional political wisdom, exposing the dire consequences of unchecked immigration, the critical role of Pennsylvania in the 2024 election, and the potential fallout of third-party voting, ultimately questioning whether America is on the brink of losing …

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Sept. 18, 2024

901: How to Save Money on Healthcare | SECRETS Hospitals Hide

@PeterGillooly from @twc_health shows how our healthcare system's perverse incentives are costing you money and potentially your health, and teaches how taking control through early intervention and medical autonomy could be your lifesaver in a world where hospitals and insurance …

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Sept. 20, 2024

902: How to Talk Politics Without Sounding Like a Nerd

Libertarians must shift from selling features to solving problems, ditching the "autistic approach" for emotional connections, to effectively communicate their ideas and win hearts and minds.

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Oct. 5, 2024

908: How to Make Money in Countries You've Never Heard Of | Expat Mon…

Rethink your approach to wealth and freedom by exploring unconventional strategies like offshore investing and international diversification, as traditional political activism and US-centric investing may no longer be enough to secure your financial future in an increasingly uncertain global economy.

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Oct. 18, 2024

913: Alcoholism Recovery & Dealing with PTSD | New Approaches for Vet…

A Marine veteran's raw journey from trauma to transformation reveals how questioning everything, embracing vulnerability, and exploring unconventional healing methods can lead to profound personal growth and self-discovery.

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Oct. 25, 2024

915: Why Government Wants to Control Social Media | THE HIDDEN TRUTH

As governments worldwide move to ban social media platforms and criminalize online speech - from Brazil's complete ban of X to UK police monitoring citizens' posts - this episode reveals how quickly digital freedom can vanish overnight and why America …

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Oct. 26, 2024

916: Why Libertarians Are Switching to Trump in 2024 | Week in Review

Popular libertarian voice Dave Smith's endorsement of Trump signals a larger shift in the liberty movement, as key figures like Rand Paul, Ron Paul, and Thomas Massie coalesce around Trump's campaign - highlighting how pragmatic libertarians are choosing strategic influence …

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Nov. 3, 2024

918: Ron Paul and Elon Musk Team Up With Trump? | Week in Review

In a shocking pre-election bombshell, as Ron Paul and Elon Musk join forces in a potential Trump administration, New York state's killing of a beloved Instagram-famous squirrel becomes a rallying cry against government overreach, revealing how bureaucrats will dispatch more …

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Nov. 21, 2024

923: How COVID Changed American Politics Forever | The Real Story Beh…

The COVID-19 pandemic and subsequent government overreach shattered public trust in institutions, leading to a massive political realignment as Americans across the spectrum rejected establishment narratives and embraced new coalitions focused on personal freedom and government accountability.

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Dec. 5, 2024

926: Dear Santa: All I Want for Christmas is Freedom

Host Brian Nichols crafts a heartfelt Christmas list to "Liberty Santa," asking for practical freedom-oriented gifts like fiscal responsibility, school choice, and honest journalism while teaching listeners how to effectively communicate liberty principles during the holiday season.

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Dec. 7, 2024

927: Bitcoin Hits $100,000 | What This Means For Your Money in 2024

Bitcoin's historic rise to $100,000 represents more than just a price milestone - it signals a growing movement toward financial independence as people seek alternatives to government-controlled money in an era of inflation and increasing centralized control.

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Dec. 19, 2024

930: How to Heal Your Body NATURALLY (Step-by-Step Guide)

A former Wall Street insider exposes the truth about our broken health system while sharing how natural solutions and proper supplementation can transform your health, challenging everything we've been told about "genetic" health problems.

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Dec. 24, 2024

932: Weight Loss SECRETS (Without Surgery or Pills!)

A former college football player shares his remarkable journey from 470 pounds to vibrant health through the power of walking, intermittent fasting, and proper supplementation, proving that sustainable weight loss starts with simply taking the first step.

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Dec. 27, 2024

933: What They SHOULD Have Taught You in School (But Didn't)

Our education system prioritizes theoretical knowledge over essential life skills, creating generations of graduates who can solve complex equations but struggle with basic adult responsibilities.

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Jan. 20, 2025

937: How to HEAL Your Body (Without Prescription Drugs!)

A groundbreaking conversation revealing how a Colombia-based healing center is combining cutting-edge natural treatments with ancient wisdom to help patients heal from serious illnesses while exposing the corruption in American healthcare.

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