299: Value-Based Empathy in Sales -with Jeremy Todd

Well, Happy Monday there, folks. Brian Nichols here on The Brian Nichols Show. Thank you for joining us. Yes, once again on another fun filled episode. And of course I am your humble host, Brian Nichols. Thanks for joining us on our Yes, kind of different Sunday episode. It was a really far throwback all the way back to February 2018. Talking about policies being the solution to the problems we see out there with a good friend of the show Dean, Clancy, and man, it's so funny to hear how the show has changed. But thank you, for all you folks for the kind words they're on our Sunday. Different not candidate highlights. Here's my guest Sunday policy series there with a quick throwback for The Brian Nichols Show. But today, yes, we are going back to talking all things sales, and particularly talking things on the values of empathy. With that being said, Jeremy Todd is back here on the program. What's up, Jeremy, how you doing? My friend?

What is up man doing? So good. Glad to be here. Happy Sunday.

Happy Sunday. Indeed. It's so glad to have you back. And I know, we both been very busy. You've been busy. Obviously focusing on getting things ready. For number one focusing on I think you have Steve rebuses campaign kicking up here into high gear. You just got his entire campaign platform I saw all ready to rock and roll. That's exciting.

Yeah, yep, yep, we're getting some things done. And I joke, I will be changing full time jobs from from stay at home dad, too. It looks like I've landed a spot. So I'll have more free time. Now that I'm working. There you go. That

was actually gonna be a question I was gonna follow up with afterwards. But that congratulations. That's exciting. All exciting things in the world of Jeremy Todd. And I guess it speaks to that they must have seen some value that you brought to the table in terms of being able to bring some value in there, I asked Jeremy that maybe it came with you asking some pretty good questions to learn about the people that you were interviewing with to maybe get genuinely curious. And some may even call that empathy, which I know, we want to go to value based empathy today, that was a tough conversation. So this goes into our fourth four part series on talking about empathy. So let's do a quick recap. So last week, we started talking about what is empathy, right? Going through the basic empathy, why empathy is important. But today, we're taking it and now bring it more to the actual sales cycle. But digging into genuinely understanding the other side of that phone call, right? When you do that cold call, who is it? You're actually talking to? Not the buyer persona, not the vertical but the person? Who are they? what makes them tick? So let's start off here, Jeremy. Value Based empathy. What is it and why is it important?

Yes. So empathy in general, but especially values based empathy that we're going to go through today is something that you have to do prior to, we've said it on the show before, you have to earn the right to be able to present your solution. And this is part of earning that right. It's about taking a deeper understanding of how the person opposite you came to the conclusion on issues that they that they did. And so that's why it's that's why it's really important. Because if you are speaking to the way that you come up with your own values, based decisions on issues, they may value things differently, they may see it in a different light. And this in understanding sort of the structure of values based empathy will allow you to, to better approach things from what matters to them, what's in it for them, how do they see things and better craft your arguments when we do get the presenting solutions? Mike was on mute, there we go.

Now, you You said something that I'm sure a lot of people were like, ooh, are we allowed to do that? And you said the words what's in it for them? What's in it for me? Right? That's a thing we see a lot of people try to stay away from, because I think inherently we feel like we're being selfish. And we might be finding that we're maybe pushing a little too hard, maybe. But in reality, we're not talking about us, we're talking about the other side, because whether they realize it or not, they're instantly thinking as soon as you engage in that conversation. Okay, what is this conversation going to yield in terms of value to me what is quite literally in this for me?

Absolutely, yeah. And the better job we can do speaking directly to those value systems that they have. And we all kind of have the same value systems, we just apply them differently to our issues to come up with come up with our our decision and choices that we make on how we see an issue and that that breaks down into something called moral foundations. And so we can go through those real quick I've got six of them. I did not come up with this. I do not have the credit for it. This is called moral foundations theory. But there are basically six values that people make their decision on issues about number one is care versus harm. This is most commonly a virtue of kindness nurturance, taking care of other people. And that moral foundation of that. The second one is fairness versus cheating. So is something just is something right is something fair. The third one would be loyalty versus betrayal, which is being loyal to your group, right. So if a group has been there, or family, if a group or family has done something for you, and you go against that group or family, you can trigger this values based system there. The next one would be authority, versus subversion. And this is really in response to are you does this violate or uphold traditions, and traditional authority figures and that sort of thing? So that's authority of subversion, then they're sanctity degradation, basically, this is a virtue of disgust does something, violate decency in your eyes? And that's a value system. And then the last one, which we as libertarians tend to make all of our decisions on. And it's why we consider ourselves to be very consistent and very principled, is we make all of our values based decisions on Liberty versus oppression? Does it violate another individual's rights? Are you oppressing those rights in some way? So those are six different values, moral values that we have, and we look at topics through those lenses. And then we will use those lenses to back up our arguments.

So you're gonna hear a lot of pushback from some people, they're gonna hear that list, and they're gonna like, What's this about? fairness? Jeremy fairness, and then the sanctity of aggregate grid degradation? I'm sorry, like, are we are we you know, a church? I'm sorry? Like, how are we supposed to? Again? Is it is it? Is it us? Is it us? Are we Yeah,

again, yeah, the well, we are not the problem is libertarians, because we we pick one of these and tend to make all of our decisions based on that. And that's why a lot of people don't look at us as rational or reasonable. We don't, we don't really play with a lot of nuance, but we're consistent. But what, what consistent, resistant, right? What, but, again, this is about persuasion, this is about selling somebody who thinks differently than you. So our goal here is to understand well, which of these is most important to them? When it comes to this issue that we're facing? And there's a series of questions that you can go through? I will just read these out real quick and that I wrote down. But they these are when you're in the discovery process, or you're beginning the conversation and you're trying to understand the party across from you, here are some questions to find out. Is this how they value things so we can break it down to care harm? Okay, so which person group or company related to the topic? Do you think was wronged? Why do you believe they did what they did? And why does it matter to you? When it comes to fairness or cheating? Do you think a person group or company was treated unfairly? Who was treated unfairly specifically? Why do you think they did what they did? And why does it matter to you? Do you think one true, then this is another one? Do you believe one group was treated differently than another? If the answer to that question is yes, they may be making their judgments based on fairness, cheating, then there's loyalty or betrayal. Do you think a person's group or company's actions were loyal to their pack? Hello party system? Do you think they showed any lack of loyalty? Why does that matter to you? authority subversion? Did a person group or company show lack of respect for authority? Did they fail to act in a way that cause harm or chaos? Did they break traditions that matter to you? Who did and why and why does this matter? sanctity degradation? Do you think anyone violated standards of decency and did something that was perceived as disgusting Who did? Why do you think they chose to do that? And why does that matter to you? And then last but not least ours Liberty oppression. Do you think somebody was denied their rights who specifically was denied their rights? Why do you think they were denied their rights? And why does denying their rights matter to you? So these are sort of discovery questions as somebody brings up a topic, and you're engaging with them. And you know, they believe something differently than you, when you have a suspicion, okay, they may be making their value judgment on this issue. These are some questions you can ask to kind of get them to talk a little more and uncover another way to think of this, Brian, and people think we say this all the time in the sales world, people make emotional decisions, and then they validate it with logic, the the this list are the emotional choices people are making.

Yeah, well, I mean, not only is it the list of the emotional choices that they're making, but then if we take it, and we extrapolate it beyond just it, let's look at that you mentioned the Liberty versus oppression, that's our emotion, that's what gets us all fired up. But if we're only focused on the things that get us fired up, and are only asking questions in that mindset, to your point, then we're not speaking to them, they're going to be writing us up, they're not going to be paying attention. And we have to get to and I think maybe this is a change of mindset that a lot of people have to have. And partly, I think it's on us because we want to use the word sales, because that's the thing that people would associate with getting better and liberty movement in terms of what needs to get better at. But what are we actually doing? At the end of the day, we're helping people buy, we know that they either have really three choices they're going to vote to they're going to vote for someone, or they're going to vote for no one, right? So we need to help guide them to buy our solution as problem solving to the problems they see in their their circle right now. If we can't even get to the point that we're having that dialogue because we're not entering into those conversations, then we're not even on the radar is an option at that point.

Absolutely. And what ends up happening a lot of times is if so for instance, especially with libertarians, we see everything through the Liberty oppression lens. So we'll we'll take a topic specifically on like, say gun control, right? Well, the people who are again, who are for gun control, are trying to get gun control legislation passed the people we are trying to persuade to be differently. They don't care about liberty or oppression on the topic. They care about care and harm in our guns harming people. Are we being kind and loving to each other? What is the most kind, loving, caring thing we can do for society? Right? And they make their emotional choice based on that, and then validate it with other logic. Well, what happened? Is,

he's a real life example. Because I'm not I don't mean to try and use drama, but you, you tweet it in, we're recording here on Sunday, but you tweet it, you know, there's this whole, like, blocks our work thing that's been going yeah. And Daryl Perry had tweeted something and you had tweeted, you know, well, are we gonna, you know, what's next? Are we gonna need a license for a toaster? And I laughed, because you're referring to for people who aren't aware back in 2016, there was a group of libertarians, who are seeking the nomination to be the candidate for the LP back in 2016. And amongst them was Darrell Perry. I think the question was about something with regard to Yeah, driver's license, and then it just turned into every single candidate sent, you know, giving you their their libertarian pissing match of liberal pissing match. Exactly. And their response to Darrell Perry gave was, you know, well, what's next? Are we getting a license to use a toaster? And it just speaks to how out of out of like reality, in terms of who is listening, when you're when you hear the argument for licenses, you don't have to agree that you have to understand why they're making it. What's that emotional tie, they hear you making fun of Well, what's next, a license for a toaster? And they're gonna write you up, because now you're not even taking their original concern? Seriously, why? because you weren't being empathetic. You weren't trying to understand you were trying to do when you are trying to demean and belittle. And we see this a lot from our friends in the left, they don't engage in conversation, they go out of their way to attack and to try to belittle and demean people. So I want to use that as a real life example of Yeah, that's why this is important. You can't just go in with what you think your core group of people need to hear. Now, yes, you can focus on your niche. But you still have to be able to address these certain value points and build a real tangible success to which this point we have in Jeremy back to you started didn't mean No, no, no,

absolutely. Well, if we can, we can. That that that I think is a phenomenal example because Darryl is making that statement speaking to the value of liberty oppression, it's my right that I to drive a car that I purchased without needing government permission slip, right. And there were some people who could get fired up by that his little toaster analogy, right. But the people who are pro driver's license aren't they're not making the license decision, they don't care harm. They're they're in a care harm state right in that situation. So with guns, they're also using a care harm versus our liberty oppression. But um, and these can vary based on sides for all kinds of different issues. So, for example, if we look at criminal justice reform, for example, our friends on the left will make their decision about the need or desire or the Black Lives Matter marches for criminal justice reform, based on one simple thing, fairness and cheating. One group in there is being more is not getting justice comparatively to other groups. However, the people who are opposed to criminal justice reform are working from a place of authority and subversion. They're the thin blue line, the police are the authority, you need to just just do what you're told nothing bad will happen, right? And so when these people get into discussions with one another, they tend to talk past each other. Everybody gets mad, and nobody walks away persuaded to change. If you want to win friends from the right, you need to speak to and again, we come from a place of liberty, oppression on the topic, right? An individual's rights are being violated. And that's really the basis of the problem. But if we want to speak to our friends on the left, we need to address the the Justice problem in the inequality and the things that matter to them and craft our arguments around that. Because we're not really going to win them over with Liberty oppression, the same with our friends on the right, they are making their position from a place and a value system. Have you respect authority? You respect tradition? We I've always said Yes, sir. No, ma'am, to police officers, and they've always been heroes, etc, etc. Right? You need to be able to speak to them in that language and craft your arguments from there. That's why one of the reasons one of the most successful things I've been able to persuade people on the right about criminal justice reform is that police and I'll in here's a great way to say it. You're absolutely right. Police have an incredibly difficult job. And in the moment, anybody's capable of making a mistake. But let me let me explain to you my perspective on it. 60% of murders are solved 40% go unsolved. The majority of property crimes and thefts go unsolved and unpunished. Why? Well, because police officers are stretched and spread far too thin. Spending all of their time, effort and energy on victimless crimes like drugs, alcohol, you know, having to police people speed limits, and all of this other sort of stuff. What if we made their job simpler. And that's exactly what I want to do with criminal justice reform, is make a police officers job simpler, make it to where police officers only are responsible for this very narrow thing of protecting life and defending life. And then solving murders and property crimes and things like that. Now, all of a sudden, I've spoken to their value system. And you can find a lot more success that

way. And this goes hand in hand why it's so important to use the marketing along with this. And I've always said and actually it's funny, I was talking about this with Philip Stephen, he's on the show, which will be airing here on Wednesday, a great conversation by the way, he's a marketing guru. And he's one of the best he's been doing this in politics for years. And actually, he's pretty much the reason they all you folks in Florida have Governor desantis you want to learn why make sure you listen to the episode. But when you look at the need, not just to, to know how to sell, but to know who not just who to sell to, or who to how you sell, but who to sell to. That's where the marketing comes in. Because you're going to be doing the data you're gonna be doing the research, you're trying to figure out, not just who is going to be listening to your message, but who is actually gonna move forward and act on your message. And it will go to a lot of these values, you're going to find that there are more people that are going to be empathetic with their values towards your whatever it is that you're selling, right whether it's a product, a service, a value, a belief yourself, whatever it is, they're going to have some value that's going to be more on that empathetic level that is online with you find those people make it easier on yourself. And I say that because we do hear this a lot where you know, we need to reach out to more people on the left We need to reach out to more people on the right, I say reach out to more people who share your values on the issues that matter. So go out and talk to them. And I think we're going to find this is why I've only made an approach to talk to people who have been impacted by the lockdowns, people who are sales professionals and entrepreneurs who are experiencing firsthand government red tape, and you know, at their doorstep, and then going out and talking to the people who are going to be experiencing the financial burden in the future, and that is Gen Z, they are the future. So talking to them and helping them set up a future that's going to be not just for them, but then for their kids. So I think it's also important to make sure we are marrying, knowing not just the questions to ask, but also who we should be spending our time, our energy, our effort in reaching out to and to know, it's okay to cut your losses. At times, there are certain people in certain groups with certain values that will not aligned with us. And that's O. K, they're not our target market. And they shouldn't be deserving of our time, energy and effort when there are so many other people out there who are right now open and empathetic to the word of mess are the words and live of liberty, because right now they see the problem, they see firsthand the pain that they have experienced. And we need to be able to make sure they see that pain and direct correlation with government, and then be able to enter in, understand those pains, understand those problems, and then offer at that point, at that point, the solution. But today, that's not our talking point. We're not talking about solutions. I know that's where I get excited. Yeah, we're making sure we understand them. First and foremost. And how do we do that? Jeremy, I'll tease it by asking some great questions now.

Yeah, yeah. And so we ask those questions, we find out what their value system is. And then we speak to it, it reminds me a lot of the objection cycle, the first step in the objection cycle is not prepare your comeback and say to it, it is to say, Hey, I understand and your concerns are completely validated and warranted, right. And so that is the approach you hear when you come across these. So you brought up lockdowns? Well, one of the main reasons were, or the main reason we're opposed to lock downs is liberty, just or Liberty oppression, again, we're consistent. But for others, it's for some people who are sort of pro mandate pro locked down, they are not doing it to take away your liberty, they're doing it because of care harm, moral values that they are basing their decisions on. And what will happen is if if you don't approach it from a care harm standpoint, and understand that their their concerns are valid, and that, then and then speak to that care, harm, place, empathetically, they're, they're just gonna, like you said, they're gonna completely disagree with you. One of the things that you bring up about target market that I find really interesting is that when you do have common ground with people, it earns you a little bit of credit when it comes to these discussions, so for example, I've got a friend of mine, she was a former neighbor of ours in back in Alabama, and she has a very much the hippie leftist socialist type. And social justice warrior type that that whole nine yards something that people would would would believe is very, not in line and kind of a lost cause. Well, originally what we did is we bonded over our common ground. I just like Trump. So anytime I have a conversation with her, I go, yeah, you know, Trump's pretty awful about this. And it's pretty awful on these wars, where he's pretty, and we were able to find some common ground on positions. Now, when she posts about vaccine mandates, or mass mandates or that sort of thing. We come from a much more empathetic position of knowing that I'm not out here, just from the other side, trying to talk her down. And what we were able to do in this case, or what I was able to do in this conversation, I believe I posted a lot of it on Twitter is come to the understanding of Okay, she is coming from a care harm perspective, but she doesn't see the Liberty oppression perspective. So what can I do? So when you want to use your value system, to argue a point, what you have to do is is almost draw a comparison or an analogy to another issue that they believe your value system on us a story. They tell us a story. That's exactly what we did. And so in this case, like on a previous episode, we talked about this was a hypothetical story. And I said, Look, if you guys go down this road, where somebody is forced to provide medical information to go into a into a business or where or go to work, you are opening the door for somebody who disagrees with you to abuse that power. So for example, could you imagine if a company said, You must provide a negative HIV test in order to work here? That would be a pretty big violation of one's liberties, right? Well, that's what you're enabling by going on this, this, this, this road, you're going down right here, and what it's going to lead to are these bad, and then I then I could tie it back to care harm, it's gonna cause people to have conflict, it's gonna lead to violence, people are going to, and we need to be squashing this right now and be peacemakers. And so I was able to tie into her care harm with that. And she goes, you're right. I've just wish people would think about others. And I'm like, Hey, I totally get it. Right. And so we were able to reach a place where she backed down and realize that negative consequences of care harm and liberty oppression on those mandates were were bad, but it comes from understanding what it is. And the more empathy you can express, there's also a psychological principle of almost like restitution. When you do somebody a favor, they feel like they owe you. So if you go to bat and are empathetic towards them, what's really interesting is you'll find them being more empathetic towards you. And that gives you an opportunity to express your value system.

I don't mean to laugh, I just, I instantly think to the episode of The Office, or Michael falls in the koi pond. And then Jim's like, Michael,

it's okay. Yeah, just just poke a little fun at yourself. And Michael's

goes out, and he starts like, poking fun, like, Oh, yeah, well, how did I miss that koi pond? And then he just starts going? And he's like, yeah,

I've been here multiple times. I

know that I knew that Paul is gonna be there like, Oh, you know how I missed it? Like, I'm an idiot. And he starts going and going and going, and it goes too far. And that's sorry, the office I'm sorry, folks, is when my favorite Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, but the the goal of the koi pond, I'm sorry, yeah,

moral of the story. Watch out for the koi pond. The mission here is to understand that the other side isn't evil, or rational or ignorant. If you view the person you're trying to persuade as evil or rational or ignorant, you are not going to do a very good job, because you are not coming from a good place. They may simply have a different value system that they are using to come to a conclusion on this issue. And you need to speak to their value system, find common ground where their value system aligns with your value system, draw analogies between those two, and then create empathy for them so that they create empathy for you and give you the opportunity to present your value system on the situation.

solutions will sell. And we'll sell those solutions when we show people that the solutions actually will fix the problems that they see in their lives. The reason that we're going to make sure that we know that it will first and foremost fix those problems is the ground no those problems, and we only will know those problems when we are empathetic. Jeremy All right. I think we're at the point where we unfortunately have to start wrapping up so you know what time it is. It's time for Jeremy sales tipa for the next two weeks, I guess it is so Jeremy, what's the sales tip you want to leave the audience with today?

Well, from this and I will I will draw one last example. And then hopefully, it will be a good summation of the episode. And that sales tip is it is better to listen than to talk past your other person. So for example, and it's less of an issue now, but years ago, when you talk to and will use gay marriage, for example, when people would speak pro gay marriage, their arguments that they would make would be based on fairness and justice. It's unfair, that they are not entitled to the same things that straight married couples are. But the people against gay marriage would not speak to fairness at all. It wasn't about fairness. for them. It was about tradition, sanctity of marriage, right? And that they're, they're degrading the term marriage and they would talk past each other. As libertarians, we have an opportunity to be that truce by basing things on Liberty oppression. And that is that, hey, if you want to respect others rights, you have to respect if you want others to respect your rights, you have to respect there's so those are three different perspectives in groups of people who you know, rather than talking past each other should talk in the terms that the other person Is is known for and that is I have found is the best way to, to find some common ground on topics and then present your earn the right to present your solutions.

Absolutely. Yes. Now I earned the right to present your solutions but like, earn the right to ask some questions you need to show you care. And the best way to show you care, believe it or not, is to actually care. So give it a shot folks.

Empathy is not an endorsement, empathy, no doubt about a green No, he is trying to understand your stand.

Yeah. And that's what sales are eternally curious. Like, if you're not curious about why someone is the way they are, then you'll never be able to understand why they have the problems they have. Because they likely have the problems they have based on the situation that they find themselves in and their lived experiences. And you want to learn that and be able to apply that to the future solution. So folks, if you want to hear more, obviously, you're gonna want to go ahead and make sure you're following Jeremy and yours truly, you can follow me over on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and tick tock at V. Nichols. Liberty Jeremy, where can folks follow you?

and Jay Todd 601. And then our Carnegie caucus, which now that I have a job will become official and website and stuff like that. So I'm at LP underscore, Carnegie. And then I am running for a seat on the libertarian National Committee at large. My website and platform is J. Todd, four, the number four l nc.com.

There it is. And also folks want to get in touch with me again, email me Brian at Brian Nichols. show.com. Also, folks, you've heard about it by now of course, and you can see it here on YouTube scrolling at the bottom of your screen four easy steps you can implement now to help sell liberty to friends and family is a free ebook. And you can get it at Brian Nichols show.com forward slash Liberty friends ebook. It's been I've been honestly I'm humbled to hear the reaction you've gotten from the amazing team over young Americans for liberty and their 1400 plus Liberty activists are there. We had around 200 or so printed off copies and like they're like I'd never heard of this kind of approach before. This is fantastic. So I mean, number one, Thank you, Chris, for being there to be able to support the show. But also thank you to a super patron Michael Lima, he went out of his way to to help us with supporting not only getting the ebooks printed off there, but some bumper stickers as well. The amazing don't hurt people don't take people's stuff bumper sticker. I'll talk about that more in a sec. But I also want to mention that when you do sign up for the ebook, you'll automatically go ahead and every single week, five days a week you will get our morning sales huddle. It's Yes, yours truly 6am. As soon as I'm done my workout, I sit down, I'll pump out a quick morning sales huddle. And I think you know, I've really found that it's real stuff, right? It's real actionable things you can take to not only focus on being a better salesperson for liberty, but a better salesperson across the board. Whether you want to apply that to your day job. You want to apply it to selling an idea or trying to sell yourself you're looking to get a brand new job Jeremy, you just were in the job market, you are literally selling yourself showing the value that you're going to bring to a new company. These are all things that you need to learn and the best way to do it i think is to practice every single day so five days a week. Yeah, our morning sales huddle if you want to go ahead and get that on its own head to the The Brian Nichols Show homepage here branko show.com and you can sign up right there at the top of the page. Otherwise, I did mention Michael and I did mention the amazing bumper stickers. Yes, he is one of our awesome Patreon supporters and every single Patreon supporter gets one of these awesome don't hurt people don't take people stuff. bumper sticker. I gotta give a special special shout out here because of course Michael Lima leads the pack but also we have amazing supporters Darryl Smith, Laura Stanley, Stanley Mitchell, Mankiewicz hoodie John's Craig Acosta, and the big we are libertarians channel $5 $10 $25 or $50 a month we have entry level sales, account level executives and now to new levels, sales managers and Director of Sales if you want to meet with me once a quarter or once a month, one on ones 25 or $50 a month and we will talk anything sales whether it's real life you're a sales professional, you're looking to get into the big account or you're trying to you know, work on some closing procedure, whatever it may be. Let's have that conversation head over to The Brian Nichols Show comm forward slash support but with all that being said, Jeremy Todd, final thoughts for the audience? What do you all leave them with this week?

Um, so is it cool if I plug our friend Harrison here go for it

Harrison's are also

Harrison Camp just finally published your closing freedom sales guide for today's Liberty activists highly recommend going to Amazon picking that up.

Yes, mine should be hopefully coming in sometime soon. But as always, Jeremy, thank you so much for imparting your amazing wisdom as it comes to sales particularly today, talking empathy from a value based empathy perspective. As always, it's a great time to catch up with my friend. But with that being said, folks, if you enjoy the episode, please go ahead, give it a share. If you're on YouTube, thumbs up notification bell, so you're not missing a single episode. But with that being said, it's Brian Nichols signing off. You're on The Brian Nichols Show for Jeremy Todd. We'll see you Wednesday.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai